On Tuesday, January 28, 2014 10:13:37 AM UTC-8, ScottW wrote:
On Tuesday, January 28, 2014 4:41:48 AM UTC-8, Scott wrote:
I have no idea why a brick walled master would not be able to be cut on vinyl.
It's harder because everything is maxed out from top to bottom.
Maxed out in the digital domain. The analog level is easily set within cutters limits. It's probably actually easier to get an optimal level with such a low dynamic range signal.
The very FAQ you cited seems to disagree with this assertion
It will just have to be at a level that is trackable with such nasty high frequency hash created by clipping.
That is one way of dealing with it but a clipped digital signal is not something you want to try to cut into a lacquer at any level.
Of course, garbage in = garbage out. I'm trying to focus on what one can technically do without more harm.
It's not just garbage it's a hard angle in the wave. Clearly this is going to be an issue in cutting.
Unlike digital, vinyls peak levels are a function of frequency due to print through and trackability. If one wants to cut an album with flat frequency response they will simply sacrifice dynamic range having to keep peak levels at the limits reasonable. Few recording engineers choose to do this instead tweaking the low and high ends. Bass is often made mono (no big deal as very low bass in a room lacks direction) to improve tracking and reduce amplitude.
this does happen. How regularly it happens is debatable. It also depends on
what records you are buying.
Seems to be discussed as std practice on vinyl mastering tutorials and FAQs.
It may seem to be discussed as such on mastering tutorials and FAQs (although not on the one *you* cited) but in my many conversations with actual mastering engineers they tend to write this stuff off as extremely uncommon to the point of being urban legend.
Also common to rolloff deep bass and add a slight mid bass bump to get a perceived solid bass content. Lots of people with systems that don't have deep bass find this particularly pleasing over a flat CD.
I often find it pleasing even with deep bass. But then true deep bass is something in and of itself that is often not on a recording to begin with..
It's not often on a record for very good technical limitations of the format.
Those limitations don't apply to CD but recording engineers still estimate the optimal system response of their target market and tweek accordingly.
Seems that all but the purest of classical recordings don't presume flat to sub 40 hz response from their target audience.
I don't think this is a CD/LP issue as much as it is a basic recording technique issue.
If from nothing else, one can get a clue from the monitor setups boasted of in literature on mixing booths. Articles published in sound on sound about the problems they routinely find in studios show how little attention to flat bass response is made in many studios. In fact they often recommend simple near field setups with small monitors claiming people using systems they expect to have good bass response (but don't) cause more harm than good as they try to push deep bass out of it.
Again this is a recording issue not a format issue.
Rolling off highs above 14k is rarely noticed by anybody.
yep. Not much music up there anyway
http://www.saemastering.com/VinylMasteringFAQs.php
"Can you cut it extremely loud and with lots of bass?
The oldest request. The only change has been the amount of volume and bass. The less time per side is always better for more volume and more bass. Also, short 6 to 8 minute sides for a 12" record should be considered for cutting at 45rpm. Yes, I've cut them very loud and punchy. Mistracking does become a concern.
And there you have it. Yes, it can be done. Buyer beware. Your equipment may not be up to the task of playing it back.
Nor may that be the best way to produce the most satisfying results.
I think a few compromises to increase dynamic range is worth considering.
What dynamic range? The question posed was can a record be cut "extremely loud and with lots of bass." Yes it can be done but it will suck.
The dynamic range of vinyl media is limited at high and low freq.
The dynamic range of either LP or CD is rarely an issue as both far exceed all but a few rare recordings. If you are looking for inherent limitations of either media I think you need to look somewhere else.
That is the bottom line. These assertions have to many subjective caveats for me.
My assertions have been purely objective in nature.
Untrackable peaks on vinyl have nothing to do with brick walling.
Sure they do. Digital clipping makes for near certain mistracking.
I'm not even sure why you bring this up unless you presume your vinyl was digitally mastered.....
*I* didn't bring it up. I was responding to your post with all the quotes from http://www.saemastering.com/VinylMasteringFAQs.php
but even then modern digital mastering equipment has nearly infinite bit capability so brickwalling should never come into play.
Well the FAQs you quoted are all about cutting vinyl from brickwalled master tapes.
No...it's just some basic guidance on mastering for vinyl. No mention of "brickwalled" master tapes that I see.
"A rose by any other name" All the quotes were about cutting "extremely loud" source signals. IOW brick walled source signals. Not interested in a semantic argument here.
So whether or not it *should* come into play is neither here nor there when addressing the answers to those FAQs.
These basic FAQs are repeated all over the web by those offering mastering services without mention of brickwalling.
Again not interested in semantics. The quotes speak for themselves. "extremely loud" is brick walled.
They should be able to do all their mastering, compress it as much as they like for "loudness" and convert to 16 bits without clipping anything.
Labels like Classic Records and Analogue productions have in large part made a living with meticulous and often superior (even with the constraints of vinyl) mastering of reissues on vinyl.
I don't think they'd be enjoying the success they have just releasing vinyl that sounds the same as already available (and much cheaper) CD versions.
Let's not confuse mastered the same with sounds the same. I have several examples of CDs and LPs that were mastered he same but they sound different as they should. My vinyl playback gear is hardly perfectly transparent. I wouldn't want it to be.
Possibly due to the limiters and filters inherent in the lathes. A step the CD recording never sees.
Nope. They are not "inherent" on the lathes. They are either being used or not being used. I can name literally hundreds of records that were cut with no use of any limiters.
Then they were meticulous in their evaluation and limiting of HF content in the master. You can't get parts for these lathes and no one would be foolish enough to risk overloading their cutting heads.
Why would you think that they would be anything but meticulous? Have you ever had the chance to talk to any of the guys out there cutting lacquers? I suggest talking to guys like Kevin Gray, Chris Bellman or Bernie Grundman. They are very good at clearing these kinds of things up.
http://www.resolutionmag.com/pdfs/KNOWHOW/VINYLA~1.PDF
"The vinyl disc doesn't have the full usable dynamic range of modern digital media and this has to be borne in
mind when mixing for it. If you make the right adjustments during mixing, the transfer to disc can be a relatively
painless process. Otherwise you leave it to the skill of the cutting engineer to realise your mix on disc; he will
have to apply what processing he needs to achieve that with no guarantee that it is true to what you had in mind
when mixing."
this is sage advice. But it doesn't tell us about what went into the actual cutting of any given LP
The fact is that the audiophile labels you mention above and several others have actually managed to cut many LPs of many great titles without using any compression, without *needing to roll the highs or bass. (this is not to say that no EQ is applied to make for better sound) And they do it without folding the bass to mono. Many of these labels do the same titles on LP, CD and SACD. Do you think they are deliberately sabotaging the CDs and SACDs to make the vinyl sound better so as to boost the success of their vinyl sales?
No, I think they tweak the recording on vinyl to make it sound good on vinyl playback systems.
Why do you think that?
Because they sound great.
That is circular logic. Do you have any reason that will stand up to scrutiny?
As far as folding the bass to mono...you shouldn't notice if they did it right as it's only the deep bass which provides the most benefit and which has no perceived direction.
It's not a question of noticing it. The companies making these records are stating that they are not doing it. If they are lying it would be quite easy to catch them at it since it is easy enough to determine if the bass is mono or stereo.
Why would they make such a claim?
I'm thinking because it's true...
Low frequency bass peak level capability is significantly greater in mono. There is no perceived directionality to these frequencies so there is no reason not to do it.
A superior result can be had by doing it.
How do you know? Have you done any blind comparisons to varify this subjective opinion?
Sounds like another crock of BS to keep the audiophools off their backs to me.
Sorry if you are finding these basic verifiable facts about how actual records are cut by these labels. Don't know what else to tell you. again you might try talking to some of these cutting engineers before declaring their methodologies to be BS.
Note: We're not talking about folding everything below 400 hz to mono.
Sub 100 is fine even though most say anything up to 200 lacks direction.
I am aware of the urban legends of folding the bass to mono to cut lacquers.. I believe the typical roll off point was actually said to be 60 hz. I think you are also very much over simplifying the issue of mono vs. stereo bass.
RTI does the cutting for Classic. Their guidance is here.
http://www.recordtech.com/prodsounds.htm
"The moral for engineers is: If you are looking for hot levels or long sides, don't pan instruments like drums and percussion hard left and right. Keep the bass and bass drum in the center, and keep everything in phase. An out of phase snare or bass drum can wreak havoc. Use an oscilloscope if possible!"
You do realize they are talking about recordings? Perhaps you are also aware that they often cut LPs at 45rpm with very short sides? Ever wonder why?