[John Williamson]

On 21/03/2019 11:35, Mike Rivers wrote:
On 3/21/2019 5:45 AM, John Williamson wrote:
Many instrument players have their own reverb built into the amp or
their instrument, which they apply to their playing as they see fit,
so the rhythm and lead guitars may have different settings, as will
the bass and keyboard players.

This is getting around to my point. In this context, how is this
application of reverb different than applying a chorus effect, or
distortion, or a filter sweep? They all modify the sound for the
instrument. If the purpose of reverb - IN THIS CONTEXT - is to make the
guitar player sound like he's in a huge stone building, a sewer pipe, or
a bathroom, then we need to think about whether that makes sense
musically, regardless of reality. It's like playing a different guitar,
or replacing the guitar with a saxophone.

The vocalists will also often ask the mixing engineer to add echo,
chorus and other effects to their feed.

That's not usually a musical or music production thing, it's to make the
singer feel more inspired and sing better. The producer or mix engineer
may add effects to the vocal when mixing, but that's also to change the
sound of the vocal because it focuses the listener's attention.

This doesn't just apply to recording.
Â*From the audience's point of view, all these individual effects add
to the room sound, to give the sound of the live performance

No! No! No! No!Â* The room gives the sound of the live performance,
because it IS a live performance. When watching a live show, we don't
want to think that the guitar player is in a cavern or the singer is in
the shower. We want them to choose the sounds that they want for their
instruments and not fool us into thinking that the bar they're playing
in is Carnegie Hall.

I count any effects the player adds as part of their performance, be
they good or bad in the context of the performance. For instance, I
treat a guitar cabinet as the instrument when recording a live show. The
combination of what the performers and the sound guy do in the room
*is* the live performance.

For some music, I'll just stick a surround sound microphone set a little
above the conductor's head, for the next gig, it may need a microphone
each and mix it down. For another gig, I'll set up a Decca Tree, maybe
with a spot mic or two, and deal with the speed of sound delays in post.

I may, if asked to for a live "pop" show, take a clean DI feed as well
as or instead of the microphone(s) near the speaker. Maybe the guitarist
or the vocalist *wants* to sound as though they are in a bathroom down
the hall. That's their choice, but if I'm recording in a studio, I
prefer a clean feed, so I can deal with what's there in context. If the
musician prefers a lot of echo, that's their choice, and I'll deal with it.

It has to sound good is the rule. Do whatever it takes to get a sound
that the producer, the engineer and the band are all happy with.

Yes! Yes! Yes! It's not about sounding like they're in a particular
space, its that it works musically. Using different amounts and
different characteristics of the generic reverberation effect on
different elements of the mix is just one technique to add some sauce to
the mix so the listener thinks it's something special. For some forms of
music, that's that the players sound like they're all in the same room.
For other forms of music, it's like each instrument has a unique
characteristic sound and bouncing around copies of the sound coming from
random or specific directions is a production decision.

Absolutely.

Nick's projects mostly involve creating every instrument from component
parts. He can make whatever he wants. For my projects, the instruments
sound like they sound and there isn't much I can, or should do to change
them. And because all the musicians are playing in the same room,
obvious changes to that presentation would be distracting.

Yes, this. The way you record has to suit the performance and the
instruments used.

For what Nick is doing, the trick would be choosing sample sets to go
together and massaging the sound as needed. They may not sound fantastic
on their own, but they do need to work together, and the art is to find
sets that do so, irrespective of source and recording location.

I'm minded in a way of the Jeff Wayne War Of The Worlds concept album.
The original version was recorded in one hit, with the musicians all in
one room, and working together. The recent re-release was recorded one
instrument at a time, and it shows. I prefer the original, but others
prefer the re-issue.

--
Tciao for Now!

John.