mkuller wrote:
Ah, the flawed amatuer dbt you hold so dear. So the gentleman may proceed,
please suggest a program for him to use which has proven sensitive enough
for
him to be able to identify these differences under blind conditions.
Steven Sullivan wrote:
Not necessary. He has already identified programs that make it identifiable
under sighted conditions; he claims already to have *heard the effect*
of green pens. So all he needs to do now is redo the comparison blinded,
using the same material, to see if it was the result of bias or not.
Ok, let me try to be concise here and then leave this contentious debate to
others for a while.
Mr. Scarpitti heard it sighted so you assume his program was sensitive enough
for him to hear the same thing blind (if it was in fact audible and not the
result of biases). "Sighted listening" and a "blind test" are two very
different human experiences. The sensitivity required of the program source
may indeed be different for it to be identified under blind conditions. Here's
why:
Mr. Scarpitti sits there casually listening to his two CDs (with his right
brain), one treated, one not, and he says he easily hears less noise in the
treated one. Now for the test - assuming the conditions (controls) are the
same - unlike the Sunshine Stereo debacle where the testers interfered with the
test (why do you think other behavioral/perceptual tests keep the testers
behind a two-way mirror? Because they interfere with the results of the test.)
So he's listening to the two CDs A and B, and then X is put on. Now he must
take his fading memories of A and B (larger differences like loudness and
frequency response seem to be eaisier to hold in memory for a little longer)
and compare to X. His brain switches from relaxed listening to decision-making
mode (left brain) as he struggles to compare X to A and B as the memories fade
quickly. He must make a decision. Now. The memories are fading fast. Did he
really hear more noise on A? Now what? Quick. Pick one. This is not nearly the
same experience as "relaxed listening to music".
Is Mr. Scarpitti a good ABX performer? It appears that individuals vary widely
in their ABX abilities (like any other human testing ability). He has had no
specific training other than some sighted listening. He may or may not be able
to identify the same things he heard sighted under very different conditions
(blind test) or he may not. You seem to feel this blind test is definitive - I
call it flawed (unlike the controlled tests used in clinical research) and
questionable.
Nope -- it seems you simply don't understand what DBT can do.
I believe I understand "what it can do" and that is show a lot of null results
when there are subtle audible differences between compared components.
Curious, too, that you haven't commented on the fact that the
whole 'green pen' thing was a joke in the first place.
Our assumptions begin at the different ends of the spectrum. Because you do
not have a mechanism you understand for an audible effect here (as with
comparing two 'competent' amps), you assume there can be no audible
differences. And your blind test shows null results which reinforce your
preconception.
I go in with no assumptions and perform (what I consider careful, methodical,
long tem) observational listening. When I hear differences that I cannot
explain, I perform more listening or have other experienced listeners join me
to see what they hear. Having no explanation in engineering or scientific terms
does not concern me because I have seen that measured test results often do not
correspond with experienced listeners' reports (JA's Stereophile correlations).
To tie thais back to the title of the thread, you and some other objectivists
here (certainly not all) seem to have a very narrow, rigid view on things you
hear (or don't) in audio that do not correspond with what the rest of us
audiophiles experience (even understanding the concepts of preconceptions and
bias). You have Audio Critic to reinforce your views and I'll read the other
audio publications that reinforce mine. It is not likely we will ever agree
here.
Regards,
Mike