S888Wheel wrote:
I said


It seems they have sufficiently done so for some who have actually tried
them.


Steven said


Depends on what you mean by 'tried'.


I said


Listened to a system with and without them.

Steven said


That may be sufficient for you or Mr. Hoffman, but in this case,
it's not, for me.


How on earth would you ever consider room treatments if you don't listen to the
effect with and without it?

Some room treatments can be reasonably expected to affect the sound of the room.

Others cannot.

How do you position your loudspeakers? It seems
that if you don't use your ears you are really limmiting your possibilities.
Gee, isn't what you hear the issue?

Yes, but that doesn't mean that *anything* is possible. No matter what
Shakti ads, or Steve Hoffman, says.

There's that old saying about the danger of keeping a mind *too* open....


Steven said

But in the case of the Hallograph -- what makes
you think it *would*?

Testimony.

Well, that's where we differ, as I said.

But make no mistake about it, testimony is good enough for an
audition at best.


Not the testimony I've seen.

If I were to audition these things they would have to make an
improvement that I thought was worth the money. My expectations are that they
would not. I could be wrong.

But you're probably right.

I see nothing in the pseudoscientific stuff posted
to the site that indicates it would;

Do you see anything in any of the known laws of physics that says it definitely
won't make a difference?


I wonder if anything is ever *definite* by your standards.

The claim is that it *does* make a certain kind of difference.
I don't see how it could do what it claims--
and someone who knows more than me about the physics involved, doesn't see it either.


I'm sure if you loaded enough of the things into a room, they'd make an
audible difference-- jsut as loading enough of any solid object will do so.
I doubt it would be the difference claimed.



Steven said

I see nothing obvious in its construction
that would make it do anything like what it's claimed to do;

The real questions though would be...1. does it make any difference 2. Does it
make a positive difference 3. Is it worth the money.

So, the specific claims of the manufacturer simply don't matter to you?

Steven said

and I don't
accept Mr. Hoffman's authority on this particukar matter, for the reason
cited. So,
why do YOU think it is likely to affect the sound?

Testimony is the only thing that would give me cause to think it *may* affect
the sound. Like I said before, I choose to refrain from passing judgement
without trying it out.

I choose to make an educated guess, as I would for claims of, say,
the health benefits of copper bracelets or avoiding walking under
ladders, despite glowing testimony from scientifically underinformed
users/practitioners.


You are assuming that the product does nothing. you simply don't know that.

Steven said

I don't *know* that paint the walls red instead of white has no effect
on sound either.

If the paint is the same type you actually do know that. Of course you don't
know how that will affect peoples' perception of the sound without testing. It
may turn out that certain colors make for a more pleasurable listening
experience. Some may blow this off since it has nothing to do with waht happens
in the ear. Some may take advantage of it and make a more enjoyable listening
envirement.

It may turn out the the effect is entirely psychological, akin to a placebo.
In that case, there is NO effect on the SOUND itself. And if so, perhaps
it's naughty to advertise red paint as really changing the SOUND of a room.

I don't *know* that shakti stones placed on top of your
speakers make them sound better. But I can make a pretty good guess
that they don't.


I thought we were talking about the hallograph?

Made by the same company....coincidence? I think not.

It, unlike different paint may
affect the sound of the room.

According to what principle?

As I said, my expectations would be very low but
that doesn't affect what they actually do or do not do.

But the possibilities are not endless.


So far, ALL I HAVE is the advertising, and some testimonials.

Exactly. you have little to go on and it seems you are ready to brand the
product as snake oil. I think you may be jumping the gun.

Let's just say I am skeptical.


Neither is
in the least convincing. Nor can I come up with a way for this thing
to work anything like it says it does, based on what I do know
of sound.

I see. If you don't know how something works you think it doesn't work. That is
what it sounds like.

I suppose there really *might* be something to those perpetual motion machines
and copper bracelets....nah.


Do you believe everything you read, Scott? Do you *ever* classify any
claims as unlikely, based on what you DO know?

Sure. But I know the difference between "unlikely" and "definitely not true."

Again, do you require firsthand experience in every case, to make the call?


Steven said


*You* asked about diffusion and the Hallograph. Mr. Pierce has adequately
answered
your question.

I said

No, he simply took issue with their advertising. It does not tell us
anything
about what this product may or may not actually do. i still hold my
position
that I would have to try them before having an opinion about their merits.
Ans,
as I said before, they had better exceed my expectations at their asking
price.


Steven said


Would you hold off judgement on a perpetual motion device, until
you'd actually seen it work?

Nope. But I wouldn't compare any room treatment with a claim of a perpetual
motion machine. We know that some room treatments make a substantial
difference. Based on that fact I am holding of on any judgement of the
Hallograph.

Simply bexcause it advertises itself as a 'room treatment'?


--
-S.