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"Fat *******" wrote:

A long diatribe that trys to make this a popularity contest, claiming that
"thousands" of people support him.

In fact there are only 3 or 4 others who have spoken at all. I'd say that if
you go to a newsgroup for Alien Abduction or the BigFoot crowd you'd find a
'majority' of the opinions one way or another.

But he seems to be offering to do some experimentation and provide some data.
That's a start.

So, we've seen evidence of at least one of these things, what does that
have
to do with this topic? lol

Which one "of those things?"

Aliens of course.... j/k The hot water freezing faster than cold. We've
seen experiments on this, and it is true. Or at least it CAN BE, in the
tests we've seen. Still has nothing to do with this topic. lol

So he believes the hot water freezing faster Myth too. It's all a matter of
heat transfer; pretty straightforward BUT nonetheless lots of people believe
it.

So you have nothing but anecdotal evidence to support your conjecture. I
figured as much.

Tom, you continue to tell everyone else that they have nothing but anecdotal
evidence, but yet your evidence is exactly the same. You are merely TELLING
US that you did these tests, but have not PROVEN them to us, so what's to
say you are doing anything more than we are? What is to say you aren't
LIEING (as Eddie would spell it) to us just to protect your reputation?

I have no reason to lie about it because I haven't convinced my customers they
should pay more labor for me to schootch their enclosure around.

Well if that's true why don't I see any contradictory evidence?

multiple people reporting that they have experienced it bears more weight
with me as "contradictory evidence" than YOU merely saying it can't be true.
You have not provided one shred of evidence to contradict what everyone else
says. You gave #'s, but you didn't SHOW any pics or evidence of such. At
least Eddie has posted page after page of information to contradict your
statements.

Actually Eddie has page after page of conjecture with no real evidence. If he'd
actually do a little investigatory work he'd see that he's wrong.

What makes your word any better than the people that have
commented on the subject in this thread? NOTHING. You may THINK your word is
better because you are Mr. Magazine, but that doesn't sway me at all. I'm
not impressed with you just because you write for a magazine. I know
hundreds of people that write for these rags, and I can say that a large
percentage of them are biased about what they write, and quite often
"stretch" the truth to suit their advertisers, or what their bosses want.
Many of them are just not bright enough to carry on a conversation with
toast, let alone write for the magazines they write for.... Not saying you
fit that category, so don't think that was aimed at you.

If 10 or more people say they've experienced it, and only you say it doesn't
happen, who is right? I think I'd take the opinions of the MAJORITY over the
one that doesn't agree.

So 10 people saying that BigFoot is in the woods is the same as actually
producing one for verification. Truth is not a popularity contest when it comes
to audio.

And your recount is simply an anecdote. There are plenty of those
describing
alien abductions in great detail too.

I don't see a majority of people saying they've been abducted by aliens,

But don't we have to accept the accounts just because they say so?

while a minority say it can't happen, so your "anecdote" doesn't quite jive
here. In this subject I see the majority ruling that there IS a noticable
difference when switching the box around, and only ONE person stating that
it doesn't happen, and can't happen.

What you have is a few people in the install business or who are customers
supporting a popular myth. Happens all the time.

So thousands of people are wrong, while
one is right? HAHAHA yeah, I'll believe that one.

"Thousands" ???? How about a half dozen.

OK; at what frequencies? "Louder" is a pretty wide term. I can turn an un
lowpassed woofer arounf facing the driver and it will sound "louder"
simply
because it has more high frequencies; IOW it "is" louder but not at bass
frequencies.

Does it matter? Let's use an example of an SPL vehicle that has NO mid/high
frequency transducers at all. This person does a sweep to see where their
peak frequency is, and then they play only that tone during BURPS to get
their max SPL #.

Sure and at what frequency does that occur? And yes microphone/driver/enclosure
will affect this but not at subwoofer frequencies UNLESS you consider 100 Hz
and up as "bass." If you do then we all agree that subwoofer direction can
change response here.

They then decide they want to try to increase the output so
they simply move the enclosure around a little bit in hopes it makes a
difference, and sure enough, they burp the same frequency, using the same
exact disc, same track, etc., using the same exact system settings (volume
maxed out, gains adjusted earlier and never touched again during subsequent
tests, same head unit, same temperature, same everything except the sub box
has been moved), and they have since increase their output by .5-3db.

Sure and often they can get changes of this magnitude by running the same test
twice without changing anything at all.

They
also HEAR (or think they hear) a noticable difference (which is corroberated
by their higher #'s)? Does this support YOUR theory that it doesn't happen?

Depends on the frequency.

Ask anyone that has ever competed in SPL competitions if they've tried even
the most minor little things and either gained, or lost output, and I can
promise you they will tell you that they HAVE seen/heard it. This is the
real world Tom, not some laboratory experiment.

The "real" world is full of uncontrolled variables that lead to incorrect
perceptions. It's in the lab where we find exactly what's happening and why.

If I can find time, and the energy (it's too f'n hot here in AZ right now to
be outside), I'll try to setup one of my vehicles with a single amp, running
one of my enclosures, NO frequencies above 100hz, and will not touch
anything other than the enclosure to change its position, and try to get
some readings for you.

It's about time someone besides me did any validation of the concept.

However, since I sold my LinearX to a buddy in
California (who has also experienced the same "phenomenon" in his SPL van,
that you say cannot happen), I will have to find someone else with a meter
to use. I will use the same disc, and the same track each time so as to
satisfy you, and we'll see if there is NO INCREASE in output.

Why not use a test disc and narrow this down to specific frequencies. Don't
forget to hold mic position constant as well.

Maybe I can
get a buddy of mine to bring his meter by to do some quick tests for you one
of these days. If I wasn't in the process of rebuilding/swapping an engine
in my Range Rover, I'd have a lot more time on my hands, but right now is a
bad time to battle you with printed data, and I'll admit that much. This
gives you time to create a bunch of pics, and charts, and other information
to post for comparison, and to support YOUR theory, instead of just "telling
us" that your theory is correct.

Well why do I have to provide evidentiary corroboration when you'll accept
conjecture from anybody who agrees with you?

But, no. I'm the only one who has done any real acoustics work so far and I'm
not going to do any more work to convince anybody who refuses to do the work
for himself.

"He noticed" is a pretty imprecise term. On what material; under what
conditions? It's pretty easy to play the same music segment twice to
people and
get them to describe 'differences' in great detail.

Same disc, same track, same everything. However, the difference in TIME is a
factor that could muddle the data. Because he had listened to it 45 minutes
earlier, and then listened again when he returned, there was enough time
lost in between that he may not "remember" how loud it was before, but he
drove around with the same car, and same system for months before this, and
was always playing the same crap (these are youngsters we're talking about
here) over and over, so I think he'd be able to tell if there was some
difference with his system before and after.

You'd "think"? But it's easily shown that humans will respond "different" 3/4
of the time when given 2 identical sound presentations side by side.

"Louder"???? What does that have to do with bass? I can make any system
sound
'louder' by turning up the volume control.

The volume knob was never in question in any of these cases. When you MAX
the volume there is no variation from one test to another. Think about it.

If nothing else changed, then why did he notice a difference? Hmmm, maybe
because there WAS ONE? Or maybe I hypnotised him without knowing it, into
thinking it was louder so that I'd continue to get all his business in the
future. Maybe that's it.

But maybe it was louder at 200 Hz.

I told him I was just screwing around with his system and flipped the
box around to see how it'd sound. His trunk flexed a lot more, so we
ended
up having to dynamat the hell out of it, but he was much more happy with
the
enclosure that way, and refused to switch it back (I wanted to because it
sounded like ass outside the vehicle with it that way).

Why would anyone care how it sounded outside the vehicle; except the
neighbors?

I guess you don't know any teenagers, and you were never one yourself.....

But of course you didn't specify the crossover frequency, the levels, the
actual frequency response or use any listening bias controls. Again its
like
"old-timers memory" which slowly gets worse over time until that fateful
day
when it improves so much that the subject becomes able to 'remember' stuff
that
didn't actually happen

Well, it's not alzheimers I assure you. I'm only 33, and the memory is still
pretty sharp. What were we talking about again?

Seriously though, when you listen to the exact same tracks on the exact same
discs, all the damn time, and you always have the volume set to exactly the
same # (or maxed out in the case of the kids mentioned earlier, or any of my
SPL vehicles), and nothing else changed (no eq's involved, no crossovers
adjusted at any time, NOTHING), then I'd say it's pretty obvious where the
change occurs.

Yeah at higher frequencies.

Of course, BUT neither you or Eddie has delivered any contrary evidence.
You
both have conjecture but no data.

Everyone has provided contrary evidence that is just as strong as yours. You
use your WORDS, and so do we.

I provided experimental details that can be replicated by anyone with the skill
and diligence. Which is what I originally did several years ago to find out
exactly what the best subwoofer location was. I response mapped an entire
vehicle and discovered that response didn't change with sub location at low
frequencies. It did matter at higher frequencies but with a suitable low pass
filter at 100 Hz or lower there was essentially no improvement or change in the
subwoofer range.

Of course, if you run the woofer up to 200 or 500 Hz, not uncommon, than you
have an issue.

You have not posted any EVIDENCE of anything
Tom, that is my point. You SAY you have it, but there has been no PROOF.
Your word is not good enough to me, just as mine or Eddies, or the dozens of
others that have posted on this and the other threads here, are not good
enough for you. However, if there are 10 people saying yes, and only one
saying no, I think I'll go with the majority vote.....

Again you're just shouting. You can replicate the experiment any time you're
ready.

Extreme low bass is ALL feel.

Indeed, and these people that have reported that they notice a difference,
probably FELT something, but maybe they heard it too. Maybe that is your
whole argument really... You can't "hear" the difference as everyone has
been saying, but had they said we FEEL the difference, maybe you'd have
responded differently. lol
(note: I was kidding, there is no doubt you'd argue it either way).

No. I set up my systems optimally from the start. In a car it's easy to
get a
system that you can 'feel.' It's much harder to get one that is sonically
balanced through the entire spectrum.

Optimally. In your opinion, yes, but optimal for you is not optimal to Roy
the Ricer, or Bob the Bassfreak, or Ted the Tuner, or Scott the skater...

Sound quality doesn't depend on popularity. There is a spectral balance that
provides the most natural reproduction of the sounds of human voiuce and
acoustic intruments using a high-quality home audio system as a reference. It
is true that people are entitled tojack a system around anyway they want but I
want one that sounds the most natural with natural sound as a referent.

Remember, most of the respondants here are the type that are TRYING to get
more BASS that they can "hear" or FEEL (if you prefer), and thus they
actually try switching their enclosures around, and every other little thing
they can think of to try and get more output, and every one of them so far
has stated that they DO notice a difference, whether you believe it or not.
Is this mass hysteria or something?

"Aiming" woofers only has an effect at 50 Hz and above in any car

Hmm, earlier it was above 60hz and only noticable at 188hz (I think that's
what I saw, but I haven't read the ENTIRE thread, it's too much BS to trudge
through). Make up your mind.

Depends on the size of the car. In a compact or full sized X-cab pickup its 60
Hz. In a Bonneville its closer to 50 Hz.

If there is a difference at 50hz and up, then you should be ready to admit
that everyone that says they noticed a difference, really HAS! Most people
consider "louder bass" anything from about 120hz and down (some may only
consider 100hz and down, others maybe 80hz and down, but the point stands.
There are many levels between 50hz and 120hz that apparently DO make a
difference). Which is it Tom, is it not possible, or is it possible, to hear
a difference?

At 100 Hz and upward, yes.

I've ever
used; these include an Aerostar,

Me too. A 96 Aerostar with a single 10" in a sealed enclosure under the
second row of seats, and eventually moved to the 3rd row, and then back. We
tried lots of locations for that one sub, and they all made noticable
differences to everyone involved. Personally I liked it best with it located
under the 2nd row of seats off to the driver side. It had the best sound in
that location in my opinion. I never had the urge to meter it, or get any
#'s off of it (it wasn't gonna turn any significant #'s anyway, it was just
to add a touch of low end for that system). I've done THOUSANDS of
installations, and many of them had little subtle changes to the enclosure
locations that were noticable in some way, be it better sound, louder,
quieter, whatever. Why would a normal every day installer bother with
testing every single vehicle they work on?

You don't need to do everyone. But you would seem to be advancing your
knowledge and skill by doing one for every class of vehicle size.

We aren't writing articles for
any rag, nor do we care to waste time on all the little BS details and #'s
that people like you want to waste time with, because we can HEAR our
differences, and we know what we LIKE, so we just stick with that.

I know I have, and I bet 100's of others in
this newsgroup have too.

Sure but they're all just anecdotes. I have numbers.

Yeah, I have a # too, it's right between my index finger and my ring finger,
care to count it?

And here's where this always winds up. Insults are always the basic tactic of
those where the evidence doesn't support the position.

Seriously though, you haven't given us anything more than anecdotal evidence
either in my opinion. You TELL US you have the data, but we hvaen't SEEN the
data.

Let me say it again:

12-inch woofer in 1.25ft3 sealed enclosure. Maximum SPL with 10% distortion
limits over the 10 to 62 Hz range:

Woofer facing front of car: 123.8 db SPL
Woofer facing rear of car: 123.3 dB SPL
Hatch Open: 113 dB SPL over 16-62 Hz range; system will not reproduce 12 and 16
Hz with 10% with hatch open.

There IS a difference. I know, you are used to just TELLING people
what you want them to hear, and expect nobody to question it, since you are
a writer in a well known magazine, and nobody is to question the greatness
of such a magazine. BAH.

And you have a personal need to support an Audio Myth that has no basis in
fact.

I think the hatch-open numbers are quite revealing because according to the
Eddie Theory SPL should increase when we let the 'cancellation' waves out of
the car.