AudioBanter.com - View Single Post - Why DBTs in audio do not deliver (was: Finally ... The Furutech CD-do-something)

In article yk3Ra.73381$ye4.49568@sccrnsc01,
(ludovic mirabel) writes:
(Audio Guy) wrote in message news:KIHQa.63015$H17.19512@sccrnsc02...
In article ,
"Harry Lavo" writes:
"Audio Guy" wrote in message
news:%4BQa.59851$Ph3.6265@sccrnsc04...
In article ,
"Harry Lavo" writes:
"Audio Guy" wrote in message
news:LzkQa.48647$GL4.13222@rwcrnsc53...
In article ,
(S888Wheel) writes:

I can't match Harry Lavo's erudite comments. I can add only, (as
an anecdote, because I read it in a newspaper aricle which did not
quote the source) this interesting report from Montreal.
A patient had a minor stroke with seemingly complete function
recovery: he could walk ,hear, understand and talk but he could no
longer sing, whistle or recognise a tune. The music computer in the
brain was gone.

I have seen and read similar reports. What has that to do with the
SOUND of audio components? I would even venture that this person
might be better at recognizing differences since he isn't trying to
interpret the sounds as music.

Your ideas strike me as so, let's say, unusual that I cannot but ask
myself if I understand you correctly. But here is Nousaine saying
pretty much the same so you two must be serious. Apparently you think
that any kind of sound can be used to test differences between
components.

Why not, that's what they are, devices to reproduce sound.

You're absolutely right. Anyone can do anything. It is a free country,
right?
If you're interested in how your system will render train whistles you
check the components by ABX for how they reproduce differences between
train whistles, ditto for cannon shots, ditto for MGM lion roar, ditto
for pink noises, ditto for music if you're interested in music.
Can you draw any conclusions from the pink noise performance about the
music performance?

No, because audio systems don't "perform" music, they reproduce sound.
If they "performed" music, you would just feed them sheet music and
out it would come, just as a musician who performs music does.

A hundred dollar question; you have to offer that
little thing called *experimental evidence* that that is the case. So
far the only evidence I have is to the contrary. You guessed it :the
famous Marcus Ovchain 1,76 db test which showed that most people
performed ABX much better when pink noise was played to them than when
they had to listen to music.

And why don't you accept Occam's Razor and realize that it shows that
music can be a poor choice for determining audio differences. that's
the conclusion I came to when I read the test report.

As for the positive outcomes of ABX component comparison I'd like to
see the day when people who like to be seen as scientists stop quoting
fantasies. The challenge to give a PRECISE reference to a listening
panel, comparing electrically comparable (roughly) components with a
final POSITIVE outcome conclusion by the test proctors, was repeated
by me at least a dozen time here , in RAHE. With no response or
barefaced claims that there are "many". Or urban legends about JJ.
etc.

Maybe because when they are roughly similar, you get a null response?
Again, Occam's Razor rears it's head.

No ,one responded because NO SUCH POSITIVE REPORTS EXIST. The majority
vote that the proctors (idiotically in my far from modest opinion)
take as vox populi, vox dei is always"They all sound the same". (Let
alone that no such tests, positive or negative have been published
since 1990).
You quote Nousaine: he unkindly contradicts you in the same thread
ridiculing "cable and amplifier sound" and denying any positives. As
for JJ.

And Pinkerton and Krueger have reported that they have had positives,
a fact you seem to keep overlooking.

I had extensive discussion with him, here in RAHE. No mention to
secret, nondisclosable comparisons- just once he mentioned his
recollections of a nonpublished test. Period.

As I said, his tests were proprietary and could not be reported in
public. Have not worked for a company that had such confidentiality
agreements? I have, and they tend to enforce them strongly.

Speakers? I suggested that energetic people organise a panel ABX
comparison of good full rtange speaker and bet that the majoority will
again have a NULL, NEGATIVE result because such is the nature of the
ABX beast ("How to get a positive ABX test?" thread. The challenge so
far was not taken up- not even by H_K who have facilities for dpeaker
moving etc.
I am sorry if I ssound impatient. I am. This very exchange has been
repeated here again and again- and every time one gets anecdotes from
people claiming to be scientists.
I'll leave aside the obvious problem of "testing" wildly different
individuals and ignoring the gifted monority- did you notice that
what makes outstanding performance outstanding is that it stand out
above the crowd?

Then please run a test and show us this person, everyone would just
love to see it. But gee, no one has yet, have they?

I never thought that claim that the "test" when applied to the
generality of audiophiles of various ages, abilities, training,
musical experience etc. could produce any result other than NULL, ZERO
was anything more than a bad joke like astrology column in a
newspaper.

Speaking of things like astrology, you seam to have ignored my post
on 12 July:
From: (Audio Guy)
Subject: Why DBTs in audio do not deliver
Message-ID: k_YPa.45825$N7.5623@sccrnsc03
Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2003 19:05:52 GMT
In article rJXPa.45341$N7.5475@sccrnsc03,
(ludovic mirabel) writes:
That is SCIENCE, kids. Not silly "personal opinions"

OK, let's discuss SCIENCE. You have explained your training and
experience in the medical field. What is your opinions on faith
healer, witch doctors, and chiropractics? These "medical practioners"
have millions of believers who disdain modern medicine and its
proponents even though there exists many, many studies and tests that
prove it's efficacy? To them modern medicine is "silly personal
opinions". How do you answer those infidels?

To those trained and experienced in the electronics field, your
objections to audio DBTs smack of the much the same.

But I can't help but feel compassion for such as Mr. Wheel
who appears genuinely to be searching for his Land of Oz only to find
perpetually that the Wizard is a fake. There ain't no "test" for
everybody. Cover up the brand names if you're worried and most will
have a better chance of getting something of signicance for them than
when performing mental ABX question and answer gymnastics.

You really have no idea at all how an ABX test actually works, do
you? Because nothing you say above indicates that you have any clue
more than it's a DBT. My guess that the reason you post at such
length against the use of DBTs in audio is that you've tried it and
it came up null wane you were so sure of a difference.

And I notice you failed to address anything I posted below, either,
you just repeated all over again the same tired complaints. How about
furthering the discussion rather than just rehashing the same points?
How about answering some of the points I made below?

Ludovic Mirabel

snip irrelevant to what followsL

Wait a minute, wait a minute. Only sound? There is no music until the
brain has processed the sound and interpreted it as music.

You entirely miss my point, the mechanism of the delivery of music
via an audio system is audio, and nothing else. It's a point I'm
trying to get Elmir to acknowledge that I've asked and to agree or
disagree.

I agree dear man, I totally agree. And the delivery of speech is also
via "audio" ie sounds. Not much help if I deliver those sounds to a
native of Kalahari desert, His brain is not wired this way. And the
brain of a heavy metal fan is not wired for cellos either.

How about you, agree or disagree.

I don't know what "audio" is as you use it. I know what sound is. I know
what music is. I know what electricity is. I know what vibrations are.
And I know that components are designed to use those elements to deliver a
facsimile of music to our brains.

If this is what you mean by audio, then I agree.

Yes, and I meant to say "via and audio systems is sound" above.

If what your really mean is electrical output (of amps, wires, etc.) then I
disagree at least as conventionally measured and sometimes evaluated.

And that is the
primary reason music reproduction is not simply electrical and physical
engineering. Their is no way to measure *music*. Ultimately whether
the
music strikes our brain as right, or the brain tells us something is
amiss,
is not "objectively" measurable. The only way to objectify it is by
allowing humans to interpret it as music, and then to develop tests to
try
to record that *subjective* response in ways that can generate some
*objective* results in the statistical sense. And there is the rub.
It
demands context for the brain to interpret what is going on. Let me
give
you a non-musical example that I use here before...about a year and a
half
ago, I think.

Suppose you hear a split second of a car crash. That's all...half a
second
of indecipherable noise. You wouldn't even know what it was. However,
if
you heard a recording of street sounds, and auto approaching, a squeal
of
tires, and then the crash, you would know what you were hearing. And if
you
heard it through two different systems you could probably which one
sounded
"most real". However, if all your heard were two snippets of sound of
the
crash itself, my guess is your brain would be trying so hard to make
sense
of what you were hearing you couldn't evaluate anything in the way of
which
sounded most "real" because you didn't know what "real" was.

Here you go again, where is the requirement of only using a split
second for audio tests? No one on the DBT side has ever said that.

See my notes below to Tom

Something similar happens with music but even more complex. Because
scientist now know that the brain is hardwired to respond to this thing
we
call "music", both rhythmically and emotionally. Further the work done
by
Oohashi et al (The Journal of Neurophysiology Vol. 83 No. 6 June 2000,
pp.
3548-3558) indicated that this emotional response took place over time,
as
much as twenty seconds of time, from the time of the sound. Presumable
this
is the time it takes the brain to recognize and interpret the music as
pleasurable, unpleasurable, rhythmically coherent or incoherent, etc.

Again who said you couldn't use 20 second audio selections in
performing DBTs? Please let us know.

You don't even understand what I'm referring to. Suggest you read the
Oohashi article.

Yes, I do, and I read it back when you first mentioned it, but you
don't want to accept the any ABX or DBT has the requirement of only
using short snippets, I guess it's because it would invalidate many
of your arguments.

This fundamental fact means that you cannot measure "sound" and
determine
its impact as "music".

Never said you could, that is you inserting something I never said.

Then why are you taking on Ludovic's suggestion that abx in particular is
not the best instrument for evaluation audio components. After all, that is
*all* he has ever really argued.

Because I totally disagree with him, and ABX in particular is
perfectly suited and in fact were created specifically for that
purpose.

The factors affecting how we respond to music are
apparently very subtle and "time-based" and "harmony-based" and not
static.
But a short burst comparison without much in the way of context for
recognition, relaxation, and response (which is the way most
short-interval
testing is done) tends to short-circuit the process. This is the
objection
must "subjectivists" have to ABX'ng in practice and why they question
"null
results" that seem so at odds with so many people's otherwise fairly
clear
perceptions of differences.

Please get off the short burst stuff, it has never been a requirement.

Again, read and understand first and then comment, thanks.

I do and did understand, thank you. You don't seem to understand that
one can listen as long as one wants, days if desired, during an ABX
session to either of A, B, or X during the test before deciding if X
is A or B. If after days of listening to A and B, if one cannot
determine which one X is, than I doubt seriously there is a
difference, at least to you (the one taking the test).

Oohashi et al indicate in the quoted article that they have confirmed
this
speculation. That is, they have used short-interval comparisons of
music,
and found "no difference" in ratings in line with accepted believe. But
when using "long-intervals" using the same stimuli and sequentially
monadic
ratings, the achieved statistically significant differences in response
to
the two stimuli.

You "amps is amps" people seem to want to ignore this finding, which is
pretty earthshaking and has nothing to do with whether you think the
"ultrasonic" portion of this test was done correctly or not, since
presumable the same stimulus was used in the precursor test (although to
be
fair this should have been better documented in the article rather than
treated as almost a passing reference). This finding alone, if
substantiated by others, would rule out much of the abx and possibly
most of
the dbt's done to date.

ABX especially does not require short bursts, and typically the
control of the switching is in the hands of the testee, so they can
use as long an interval as they wish. Please explain how that
invalidates any previous tests.

And if you are intent on hearing differences, as opposed to evaluating music
reproduction, the technique tends to lead you in that direction.

For one component to be better than another there must be a
difference, how else could it happen? That's the whole point.

And I am not an "amps is amps" person, I know I have heard differences
between amps, preamps, CD players, etc. But I also know people are
programmed to find differences when none exist. As I've mentioned
before, I made a change to my system, remarked to myself how big a
change it made, only to find out I hadn't really made the change. All
it takes is doing that one time to realize how easy it is to be
mistaken in one's perceptions. I believe many of those on the DBT side
have had the same revelation before and it helped convince them of the
need for controls if one wants to be sure, just as it did to me.

We've all done that...it doesn't mean that all instances of sighted
listening are invalid.

Well then you didn't imagine a huge difference then, because that's
what convinced me, I thought I'd heard a very noticeable difference
when nothing at all had changed. As many of the DBT advocates have
mentioned, they were complete believers in the idea that every
component has it's own sound and that by just careful listening you
can determine which his better. But an eye opening event such as the
one I had occurs, and it dawns on you how easily one can be mistaken.

That's the logical error you folks make. Your
boolean should should be as follows (and for some here it is):

sighted listening can sometime lead to false positive differences
I am using sighted listening
Therefore, it is possible that differences are due to factors other than
sound.

No problem here.

Instead, in this newsgroup many tend to use different logic. It tends to go:

signted listening can sometimes lead to false positive differences
I am using sighted listening
Therefore, almost certainly I am imagining any differences I hear (because
we know better and because what you think you hear can't be possible, etc
etc etc)

Wrong, it's that it is very possible that I could be imaging a
difference that is not there, so controls are needed if you want to
be sure. If being sure is not a criteria, then do whatever you want.

And, Tom, before you say it, I know dbt'ng doesn't *have* to be done
that
way, but the fact is most of it has been done that way.

Only because those who use it find it's easiest to determine a
difference using short snippets. And yes, ABX tests have found
differences, they do not all have "no difference" reports.

Component evaluations of music reproduction? Documented and subject to a
rigorous methodological evaluation? If so, where? I'd feel a lot better
about the test which a goodly number of such results, as well as null
results. And, BTW, isn't that exactly what Ludovic and "Wheel" have been
requesting?

Not that I have, but Nousaine, JJ and others have reported them, and
JJ's in particular also included the sensitivity testing with probe
signals that Wheel has been asking for. But JJ's were not available
to the general public since they were proprietary with the exception
of those very few that were presented at AES conventions.

Back to the main point; evaluating components is *not* hearing
differences,
but evaluating how possible differences effect emotional and rhythmic
response from us as humans. There is a big difference. And the answer
to
the "there have to be differences fist" response is....how do you not
know
there aren't if the test itself tends to short circuit those responses.
This is why there have been requests for evidence of rigor in the
testing
and for validation of the abx and abc/hr testing themselves versus other
forms of testing (for example the sequential proto-monadic used by
Oohashi
et al which do purport to measure differences. it cannot just be
assumed
away.

Please explain how the test "short circuits" the response since the
only thing you've mentioned is the use of short snippets, a point I
believe I've shown is not valid.

You've asserted it is not valid, without reading Oohashi et al to understand
the delay mechanism and alternative means of measurement when it comes to
evaluating music.

Since your main point seems to be that short snippets aren't any good
for evalutaing components, but they aren't a requirement at all, so
then please explain.