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From: michael
Date: 12/29/2004 8:14 AM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:

S888Wheel wrote:

From: michael

I snipped out most of the thread becuase anyone interested can go back
and read. This back and forth is getting unmanagable. Anyhow, to
recap: I claimed that when recording from a turntable to a CD there
exists alot of analog grundge that is heard and is also shown
graphically by VU meters. This stuff is non-musical noise. Now it
appears that you are arguing the validity of this?

No I am arguing against the implied global implications. Heck one can find
any
number of CDs that have "grundge" in the signal. It doesn't say anything
about
the medium just something about that CD.

NO, NO, NO! Don't mix up two different ideas. Maybe I am at fault for
not explaining this clearly. I am talking about inherent vinyl noise.

No you are talking about the vinyl noise in *your* records on *your* rig. You
seem to be assuming that *that* noise is indicative of the inherent noise floor
of the medium. I think you are likely wrong about that. I bet the medium is
capable of better.

This has nothing to do with any "grundge" recorded on a CD as part of
the program material, nor does it have anything to do with badly
recorded CDs that might sound harsh, or are otherwise flawed.

Sure it does, Unless you are using the quitest records available you are
measuring more than just the inherent noise floor of vinyl. Same goes for your
rig.

Vinyl
noise is an artifact present on EVERY Lp played with a stylus.

Agreed.

Some Lps
are worse than others, but its origin is in the stylus-groove interface
and manifests regardless of whatever program signal is present.

That is my point. You cannot make any universal claims about the severity of it
based on such limited experience. Your tests are not evidence of the limits of
the medium just your stuff.

There
is no comparable digital artifact because, with properly applied digital
techniques, the noise floor drops to essentially zero.

If you want to know what the limitations of the medium are and not just the
limitations of your stuff I suggest you use a Rockport TT or Forsell that
is
properly isolated or even a fully decked out Walker Procenium Gold.

I don't care what turntable/arm/cartridge one uses. Lp surface noise
will be audible, especially when monitoring using headphones.

I think you are wrong about that. You *might* be able to here it cranked up
with no music playing but no way will you here the surface noise at normal
levels with any kind of music playing if you are using SOTA equipment with SOTA
records.

Obviously
some systems may contribute additional mechanism related noise that
others may not, but this, again, is not what I'm speaking and writing about.

Actually it is when you are talking about your stuff because that additional
noise from your stuff is present in your tests.