AudioBanter.com - View Single Post - Comments regarding: Cables, Hearing, Stuff!!

lcw999 wrote:

On Mon, 29 Mar 2004 16:48:56 +0000, Nousaine wrote:

"Bob Marcus" wrote:

Michael Scarpitti wrote:

lcw999 wrote in message
news:9Pn8c.87424$po.663367@attbi_s52...
Over the years these Audio newsgroups have been a beehive of
activity regarding Cables, Amps, CD players...etc.

There is a contingent on some of these groups that tend to
have
an Engineering bent toward those that frequent the High-End
audio...basically, it states your "imagination is misleading
you"
There are no detectable differences in cables, etc.

According to William of Occam, nature does not work in a more
complicated way than necessary. Given two explanations, the one that
is simpler is more likely to be true.

As Einstein said, "Everything should be made as simple as possible,
but not
simpler."

The simplest explanation for why
people hear difference between cable is that there are audible
differences between cables.

The simplest explanation for why the sun rises in the east and sets
in
the
west is that the sun revolves around the earth. So much for Occam.
(Or,
rather, so much for your version of Occam.)

Citing 'psychological factors' is no
explanation at all.

So what is Occam's explanation for why people sometimes hear
differences
between things that are exactly the same?

We never have had the hard facts that any two of anything is
"exactly" the same. You are going from the source
(amps-preamp-spk) to the acoustic sphere (air-atmospheric
pressure-etc) to the variables of the individual ear-brain
structure that varies somewhat between every individual...so if
with todays toolsets you determining anything is "exactly" the
same.. ..be a bit cautious about the "exactly" stuff. We are not
there yet. One can fix about any problem with ye ole "bias-box".
What a wonderful tool!

bob

Or the folks on this wonderful episode of Candid Camera where subjects
gladly
described the major "differences" in the taste of wine which was
poured
out of
the same bottle. In this case Candid Camera had a table with several
filled
glasses of wine which were filled from the same bottle but each of
which
had a
partially filled open bottle of wine placed next to each glass. I
think
the
simplest explantion was expectation effect/ common human percepual
bias
mechanisms.

Of course, they only had interviews with a few subjects and it is
possible that
they had to conduct 100 trials to get a small number of "interesting"
responses. But, that doesn't seem likely ...... only 60-minutes or NBC
(remember the pick-up side-gas-tank explosion story where they had to
use
rocket motors to get crash explosions?) would be capable of such gross
offense.

Even so Candid Camera they only had 6 of 25 or so with perceptually
biased
answers it's still likely that the simplest explanation of cable sound
IS human
perceptual bias.
__________________________________________________ _

In other postings we refer to the more logical "perceptual
interpretation". However, to pursue a given agenda we
now use "perceptual bias". One cannot lose with this
type of engineering. The ole "bias toolbox" has been
opened again. Can't have it both ways!! No one really
believes "all is the same"..the truth is probably somewhere
in the middle. Some are different..others, much the same.

Leonard...

Actually any two objects can never be physically identical (one will
always
have a microscopic bit of duct more or less) but when conditions are
arranged
so that subjects get two presentations that are arranged to be
perceptually
identical (or so similar that they fall below known thresholds) and
still
subjects report "differences" what are we supposed to believe?

It's interesting that presentations arranged to be acoustically
identical will
be reported as perceptually different by humans; and that when
experienced
audiophiles "fail" to reliably identify amps/cables when nothing moe
than a
cloth is placed over the input/output terminals some folks will argue
that
there WERE "real" differences that cannot yet be "measured" will be
uncovered
later.

I still wonder why some amp/cable manufacturer with nominally competent
electrical performance can't produce a bias controlled listening test
that
shows their products have any sound of their own?

It's a quandry. So many want me to "believe" but when I say "OK show me
....
when you don't know the answers in advance" --- no one can. I'm not
thinking
that 'unmeasurable but real' differences fit into the equation in a
meaningful
way.