S888Wheel wrote:
From: chung
Date: 7/10/2004 10:38 PM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id: 9n4Ic.66712$Oq2.50867@attbi_s52
S888Wheel wrote:
From: chung
Date: 7/9/2004 9:38 AM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id: PRzHc.50521$IQ4.19828@attbi_s02
S888Wheel wrote:
From: chung
Date: 7/7/2004 7:31 PM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id: 8m2Hc.40996$a24.23645@attbi_s03
S888Wheel wrote:
From: "Dennis Moore"
Date: 7/6/2004 8:55 AM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:
Got to say amen goFab,
Stereophile would have had one notable review if I had been
writing one on the most expensive amp. If it were an inexpensive
product, I would simply say it broken. If it had been this one
for $350K and it was apparent they meant it to be this way,
the review would have redefined the term scathing.
That is your POV. I find it interesting that you would take such a POV
without
actually listening to the product.
I don't think an amp that clips at 2W is worth listening, too. Of
course, some may like the clipped sound, I guess.
Maybe not. But you are making presumptions without actually listening.
How am I making presumptions?
You said you don't think the amp in question is worth listening to without
listening to it. I find that a bit presumptuous.
I find that you are the one who is extremely presumptious. I *know* that
I do not want to listen to a 2W amp. How could you possible assume that
I would find such an amp worth listening to?
If the measurements show that the amp
clips at a low output voltage, then the amp will distort at low output
voltages. Are you saying that I may like the clipped sound?\
Obviously someone did in this particular case.
But not me.
Maybe you would too if you
didn't know ahead of time what you were listening to.
There, you are being presumptious.
Maybe you wouldn't. A lot
of maybes. I found an actual audition of a WAVAC amp to far more
informative
than speculation and presumption.
Go ahead and listen for yourself, but please don't argue with me that I
may like a 2W amp.
I believe I recall some part of the review mentioned, "a listening
experience like no other, a way of hearing the music different
than any other".
It went on to say that it was like no other in that it sounded so much
more
like live unamplified music. Some people like that.
Yeah, but the fact that someone may like it does not mean that it is not
necessarily bad.
It does for that person and anyone else who has a similar response.
There's no accounting for taste.
I thought taste was considered subjective by objectivists.
And your point being?
Read the next line I wrote.
Which was totally irrelevant to my statement that there is no accounting
for taste. Meaning you can't argue about someone else's taste. Meaning
there are many people with taste that you would consider poor.
Oh, c'mon. You took a shot at MF's taste.
Oh yeah? All I said is that there is no accounting for taste, which is
really a trusim, and which explains why some people like low wattage
amps, and you conclude that I was taking a shot at MF's taste? Wow!
On the other hand, you seem to be trying hard to get someone to take a
shot at MF's taste...
You were asking about eaxamples of
people getting banged around on RAHE? here is a fine one.
Actually MF does not post here, so that fails to apply as an example.
But if you think that being challenged for raving about a 2W amp that is
spec'd at 150W, and by the way, costs $350K, qualifies as being banged
around, well, he would not get any sympathy from me
.
I suppose you
wouldn't feel insulted if I infered that you had poor taste because your
subjective impressions didn't fall in line with my presumptions?
Actually, I would have expected that you don't think much about my taste
in hi-fi equipment, but that is neither here nor there. IOW, totally
irrelevant to the discussion of whether the amp is broken or not.
Are you now saying
that MF may simply have inferior taste?
"Simply"?
Yes, I said simply.
It is obvious that someone who can rave about the wonderful
sound of an amp that clips at 2W has, uh, unconventional, taste.
How do you know? You have never heard the amp in question.
Do you understand the meaning of "unconventional"? How many people you
know will rave about the sound of a 2W amp that is spec'ed at 150W?
I have asked for some clarification on this issue. No one has been forthcoming.
Let's take a practical example. My speakers are very inefficient, about 84db.
If this amp is clipping at 2 watts then I shouldn't be able to get much more
than 87db of sound from them with a test signal should I?
Since you have the habit of not forming any opinion until you listen to
it first, I would recomend that you listen to it instead of worrying
about how much power you are getting out of it.
I should think so, considering the broken
manner it was operating most of the time.
Broken? It was not operating as it was designed to operate? to me,
broken
means
it doesn't work as it is supposed to work or not at all.
If as goFab says, the rated power is 150W/ch and it clips at 2W, it's
broken. It certainly is not working as it's supposed to.
Or they are not giving straight info on the power rating.
You mean as in lying?
No I didn't mean that. It may very well be a lie. I am in no position to
make
that acusation.
Well, if it's not lying, then it's gross incompetence. Or gross
negligence. Or cheating. Which is it? A typo?
A question worth persuing I think. If it is a lie it is serious.
If it's not a lie, then what is it?
For kicks lets
say I was purchasing this amp. Even with my inefficient speakers I would be
expecting to get over a 100 db pl;ayback levels if called for in the material I
am playing. If this amp is clipping at 87 db could it possibly even approach my
expected sound preasure levels at all much less do so an still sound anything
like music?
I have no idea what you consider "sounding anything like music". But for
me, an amp that can only produces 93dB SPL at 1 m (and a pretty
efficient speaker at that) is simply not acceptable.
All amps clip at a
certain point.
You buy an amp that is rated at 150W. You find out that it clips at less
than 1/10 of that. It sounds (pun inteneded) broken to me.
We seem to have very different understanding of the word broken.This is my
understanding...1 : violently separated into parts : SHATTERED
2 : damaged or altered by breaking: as a : having undergone or been
subjected
to fracture : disrupted by change
It's really simple. An amp spec'ed at 150W that clips at 2W is broken
IMO. You can argue semantics all you want.
Doesn't mean they are broken. Even if their power output is
grossly misrepresented by the marketing.I'm not really clear about this
clipping issue though. The amp is clipping at 2 watts? The sort of
clipping
that can damage speakers? I thought clipping was what happened when the
signal
exceeds the amps output cpacity and the wave is cut off before it gets to
it's
apex? Is that not what clipping is? Is this really happening at 2 watts?
I am glad that now you are realizing the enormity of the problem....
You didn't answer the question.
The point is that now you are starting to realize the enormity of the
problem by trying to find out what clipping at 2W means. Now it's your
turn to do some research.
Lets put it another way. An amp that is rated
at 150 watts can produce about 111 db from a speaker that is rated at about
90
db in efficiency right?
111.8 dB SPL at 1 meter.
an amp that clips at 2 watts can do what?
93 dB SPL at 1 meter, or was that a rhetorical question?
No. it wasn't.
Funny that you got close to the right answer with 150W but couldn't
figure out 2W.
You think an amp that clips at 93 dB SPL at 1m is good enough to handle
the dynamics of the kind of music you listen to? Well, it certainly
saves you a lot of money...unless you want this amp by WAVAC.
Is it clear that the amp ain't gonna put out much more than 93 db of sound?
Do you like clipping distortion? If you do, then maybe you can squeeze
out another couple of dB.
Here's a problem I am having with this though. When I auditioned a WAVAC amp
that WAVAC rated at 50 watts it was able to play louder than my Creek
integrated amp that is rated at 20 watts. Now if WAVAC is in the habbit of such
gross misrepresentations of power output one has to wonder what the true output
of 50 watt WAVAC is. Even if it is only doing as well as it's big. very big
brother it should not be able to play louder than the 20 watt Creek.
Now, do you understand why we said the amp is broken?
But it did
without sounding *grossly* distorted. So what is going on here. Do you think
that the big WAVACs really won't produce much more than 87 db on my current
speakers that are about 84 db in efficiency?
I'm afraid you have to do the research yourself. But if the measurements
indicate the amp clips at 2W, well, you got your answer right there.
Unless the amp clips at a different point with different load
impedances. But even then the differences are small, a few dB at the most.