Nousaine wrote:

For $250, it's a decent budget system. For $1300 with the Bose
name and a $100 receiver unit included, it's just not a good deal.

As I said 'value' is the operative factor. Neither sounds that god.

True. For $1300, I'd still probably go for two excellent speakers
and add in comparable surrounds later on as $500 for a pair versus
$1300? For $1300 you can get something very good or make your
own. Some of the kits online are quite good.

Both the Bose and the Energy are equal in setup difficulty as they
both require little mounts/stands and as for wires - gosh - any
speaker wire will do.

But we shouldn't foget that the Bose comes with wires that are already
terminated on one end. They also have a very nice large fold-out system
diagram. Of course this means nothing to you and me; but to many consumers this
is no small matter.

Lol. Sometimes I do wonder about them. Most speakers these days
come with diagrams. The amplifier certainly does. I'll give
Denon that - they make some of the most understandable and
overkill manuals in the business.

It's more like Cadillac. Millions on image and yet a common Lexus
beats them for reliability and driving experience.

I think you're wrong here; at least with regard to the cars I've driven (STS vs
LS400; and the large SUVs.) I guess I can't speak for reliability but in
driving and styling it's Cadillac by a fair margin. The Lexus SUVs are a big
disappointment to me. But again the cache/image is the thing.

GM builds unreliable crap barely better than Ford. The Lexus SUV -
yeah, it bites. The point of a true SUV is to go off-road, and
to do that, you need small and agile. You wonder why the Lexus
is so bad? Because it's really a 4wd oversize van with fancy
sheetmetal. The STS is eh - okay I guess. Did nothing for me
compared to a GS400. Of course, strap yourself into a SAAB 9-5
with the big turbo in it...(grin) It's no 911, but it's no
Caddy either.

Then show me the data, because the KEF system doesn't do this.
I doubt if you've actually measured the KEF system yet. It
will surprize you.

Ths stuff has all been published in S&V. But you're right I haven't dome a KEF
system for some time. Actually I just shipped out a KEF HTIB 2 weeks ago that
had been gathering dust awaiting the signal to measure it because it was
getting in the way. Now I wish I hadn't.

If it was the little one, I'd say not to bother. The midrange
$1300-$1500 2005 model is quite decent - the first minisystem that
approaches real speakers, IMO. My father uses Tannoy R1s for his
surrounds and they are about as small as you'd really want to go
and get acceptable sound. But *if* you have to go small, these
aren't half bad. Me - I'd probably go for wall-colored MMGs
or simmilar if near-zero footprint was a must.

I'm wondering what the company looks like these days and who's really doing
things. It's true that Dick Small and Laurie Fincham are both KEF alumni but
I'm not so sure that they are still the top brand of old. I ship both
Celestion and KEF back to the same address.

Yeah, other than their top end stuff, it's all too like the rest of
them. OTOH, while cheap, their low-end is like Tannoy - somewhat
acceptable and a notch above most of the other budget lines.

The lack of blare(read: proper HF design to keep the tweeter
in line) alone is a big deal. Most small speakers fail
this litmus test miserably. It's more of a design thing
than a driver problem - and not that hard to deal with, yet
most companies are so darn cheap that they don't even try
to address it.

But I've never found a 'small' home theater set or HTIB that doesn't have a
dynamically weak upper bass/low midrange area between 150 to 300 Hz. That's
because the common bass module (even tho the crossover dial may be marked 200
Hz) seldom has response above 150 Hz and the satellites are rapidly falling in
output capability at the lower end of their bandwidth.

I've heard a *few* - but yeah - most all of them are utter crap.
They sound like... Well, I have this informal test I do. I really
have superb listening skills being a musician, singer, and having
studied it all in school. So it's actually pretty accurate.

The "test" is how far away can I walk from the speaker before it
sounds like a "speaker" - or a source of music. Kind of like how
a clock radio sounds in the next room - it's just "blare over there"
and more volume does nothing to make it sound more realistic.

For most HTIB type speakers, that's about 8-10 feet.
For a pair of Tannoy S8s, it's about 30-40 ft. Quite acceptable.

This is one reason Maggies do so well - they have huge range
in this sort of test. The point of all of this is that with
enough SPL and dispersion, the sound envelops you and you
can't reliably tell one direction from another without the
sound specifically going there(typical of a real movie theater)

Your mind gives up at some point trying to figure out where all
the sound is and just zones out - and you just enjoy the music
or movie.

Tiny speakers can't really do this, IME - we both agree on this.
They never sound realistic no matter what they are playing.

Subwoofers in this category typically have maximal SPL capability at 60 Hz and
above but fall at 12-24 dB per octave below 62 Hz. Few are capable of producing
reasonable SPL with low distortion even down to 32 Hz.

I personally cut subs off with a hard filter or digital processor
at 60hz. Higher than that is directional in my house and is
going to be interfered with by the true LF sounds. This means
good mains. 6-8 inch woofers and 40-50hz cleanly.

I think that response graphs taken at moderate output levels fail to tell the
whole story. Dynamic capability in the lower end of response is also important.
For example the Boston Acoustics CR55 is a wondeful speaker (nearly dead-flat
with tightly controlled directivity) down to 100 Hz (80 Hz claimed) but the
lowest frequency where it can deliver clean SPL is 80 Hz @ a paltry 80 dB. The
4 1/2-inch woofer just can't do any better than that.

I sometimes do simmilar tests with the drivers out of the box - as
resonance is faking it, IMO. True - the cabinet helps some, but
for many makers it's a cheap way out. Almost any $5 driver can
be made to sound acceptable with enough cabinet tweaking.

I like designs with no ports/vents in them myself. More WYSIWYG.
Yes, I've seen B&W 602 size speakers like this that barely reach 60hz,
because there is no magic gimmick to reinforce bass.

IMO, a good driver should sound decent enough outside of a box.
I hear very few that do. Morel and Seas and Scanspeak
are pretty good at this "test", though.

The matching subwoofer that came with the system would produce 108 dB SPL @ 62

(snip)

frequencies; often the subwoofers are smaller and can't do 25 Hz but they can
have significant SPL at 60 Hz.

All highs, no lows... (grin)

The idea that a 6 in ch driver can do realistic bass - I guess I'm
with you on this - I'm old skool(sm) It takes mass, and that
usually means a decent amp and a 2-3 way speaker that can do 50-60hz
cleanly before we get to talk about a sub.

BTW - yes, I've heard a LOT of god-awful flabby and chuffy subs
over the years. It's not rocket science anymore, but it does
require a better than $30 15 inch speaker.

It is true that this effect is quite large with Bose as it is in any system
with less than 6.5-inch midrange drivers. Indeed I think the 200-300 Hz hole in
the Bose is one of its big demonstration points. A suck-out on that range gives
the impression of great clarity.

Probably so. I didn't understand this until a few months ago
when I was in a Bose store in the mall and it hit me that they
are made to sound "good' in very noisy environments like typical
audio stores due to this type of effect. The same with cars -
it's nowhere near accurate, but then again, the road and engine
and wind noise in a typical car is like a huge wet blanket
on the midrange. You need skewed speakers to sound accurate
unless you want to spend big bucks(like $100 per speaker or more).

But if it's a Uni-Q it will have the classic 3-bump response error that comes
with the reflections of the tweeter from the cone walls as sound exits the
driver. I, personally, have never found this to be particularly annoying but
it's been measurable in every Uni-Q I've had.

Well, it's no monitor to be sure, but not rubbish either.
As you say, it's not particularly annoying.

Wel, since the Bose box has upwards of 30-40% distortion when raised
to decent sound levels...

How do you know this?

Others have measured it. Typical of most HTIB setups, the bass
"module" is made out of LDF or plastic or simmilar and resonates
quite readily.

80hz is doable with good drivers. With decent SPL and low distortion.

Not if they're smaller than 5-25-inches. 6 or 6.5 is a useful minimum size for
a system with true dynamic capability at 80 Hz. Smaller drivers simply don't
have the displacement for that job.

It depends. Some do - some do not. Many *do* suck at low frequencies.
I'm constantly amazed at the utter rubbish that makers foist off on us
in most speakers. You can tell it's a $10 driver just by looking at
where it is made and the obvious errors and quality control issues.

The moral is that you need to really make your own speakers as
the rubes charge you ungodly markups. $300 in parts yields
a hell of a tower speaker(one) if you are halfway competant.

But 25 Hz isn't "subsonic" either. And let's not forget that the fundamental
ofthe lowest note of an organ with 32-foot stops is 16 Hz. Sure if you never
play that kind of material who cares?

But in my opinion few "subwoofers" are really subwoofers. They are, for the
most part, simply common woofers. Indeed the reason I have a self-designed
custom "subwoofer" is more than just partially because I couldn't buy a
commerical unit that would play modern recordings as intended with sound of 10
Hz on them.

This is actually one of my most common gripes. I love my 4410s because
they have big 10 inch woofers in them. Woofers. Not subwoofers.
Because 10 inch drivers are necessarry for decent low-end. Mine do
35-40hz cleanly, but suck gobs of power as expected.

For organ music - a seperate big 15 inch sub would almost be
mandatory - 8 or even 10 inchers won't cut it. That the
organ has a seperate set of pipes for the foot pedals is
a clue that that last octave or two needs a seperate speaker
system.

Oh - I also respect what you say about subs. JBL PRO makes
some big subs for motion picture use. I'd probably build
my own, but IMO, a "woofer" is 6-10 inches and a "sub"
is 12-18 inches. Q: is there anything larger than an
18 inch made currently?


Not that I'm aware of. Hartley used to sell those really bad 24-inch models and
Eclipse had a 32-inch car woofer for a while but I think those are all gone.

I remember a 24 or 32 incher custom one at the Exploratorium in San
Fransisco. They had a knob hooked up to a tone generator and could
go from 40hz down to about 10hz. Pretty fun, actually, as your body
would start to react at the very bottom end. I always wanted one

but I
was able to acquire custom TC Sounds 15-inch unit swith 2/3 more Vd than the
JBLs. This was primarily because the 23.4mm Xmax of the TC Sounds more than
offset the 10mm JBLs 60% more cone area.

Nice to know. How much do they cost?

I wasn't leaving out Madisound. Larry Hitch is a good friend and will be
hosting the upcoming PSACS April meeting.

I don't thin PartsExpress is crap either. I think they're just great. Like
publishing the fhe CLIO frequency response of that woofer you mentioned.

What they have IS documented well enough - but I just wish they
carried better drivers. When you are faced with 20 $10-$20
choices...

John Stone of SEAS was a presenter at a PSACS meeting last year. I'm sure he'll
be at Madisound for the PSACS meeting too.

Morel, on the other hand, often seems to have some construction difficulties.
I've often seen drivers glued up poorly and much of their stuff seems, like
Bose, overly priced for what you get.

Their tweeters seem to be okay. The idea was a Morel tweeter and
a Seas or Scanspeak midrange and/or woofer.

That one looks much better than the first 2. But it doesn't have 20 kHz even
directly on axis. And it's falling quickly at 100 Hz. I'd certainly use one but
the $45 makes it less competitive. And by the way how do you know that the
price might be in quantity?

Well, yeah - as I said, any smart designer would use a seperate tweeter,
even in a surround speaker.

And let's talk about DIY speaker manufacturers. How about KEF and Dynaudio. In
the 80s and early 90s I sometimes made custom speakers for friends. This
required me to purchase drivers from places like Madisound and Zalytron (I'm
guessing this was pre-PartsExpress.)
....
After awhile I think I figured out what was going on. KEF used to select
drivers for their up-market products so that when you burned out a driver in
either channel you had to return BOTH speakers for repair (they had to install
selected drivers.) This meant that KEF didn't manufacture drivers to a given
tolerance; they mase a car-load and then selected individual units for given
speakers.

JBL used to do this as well for a while. It got really annoying in
fact, so I ended up swapping out the tweeters for aftermarket ones
and the sound improved greatly. It made no sense that I had to
replace them in pairs.

So what would be the logical thing to do with the drivers that were
'out-of-tolerance' for any speaker model being produced? Sell them to the DIY
market.

Go fig. What makers don't do this today? If I was making speakers,
I'd be picky and rather have 100 to sell that are proper as opposed
to 1000 that are all over the place.

It would be good to know which makers sell their crud to the DIYer
crowd and where to get the decent ones.

But I thought you were offering them as a response to Bose. If a company will
sell a product with BS and you'll buy them with the reason that "they'll fit in
a corner" it seems to me that your arguments about Bose are.... well just
pretty similar to mine.

Well, NoRH sound decent enough, the blather aside. That he's
using a superb cabinet design helps a LOT to deal with the
frankly average drivers. I'm still amazed that he doesn't
slap a small supertweeter on al of the cabinets to offload
some of the stress from the main driver.

http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showd...number=297-409
This seems to be an acceptable self-contained unitlike you'd
see on most budget systems. NoRH should try to put something
like this on a couple of models.