Chung wrote:
wrote:
Chung wrote:
wrote:
chung wrote:
wrote:
wrote:
Jenn wrote:
Hi all,
A couple of weeks ago, I solicited opinions on whether I
should
pruchase a new lower cost TT like the Pro-ject, et al, or
refurbish
my
old Denon DP-62-L that had been in storage for some time,
as
I
reenter
the analogue world. Well, I took the TT in to my trusty
local
store,
Audio Ectasy, and had them mount a new Grado Red,
Audioquest
mat,
and
replace the stock cable with Audioquest. I also bought a
Record
Doctor
and some isolation feet from Audio Advisor. I've lived
with
the
combo
for a few days now. The results? WONDERFUL! After
having
spent a
week in Carnegie Hall recently, conducting and hearing 4
concerts,
I
now remember why I like analogue so much. It's MUCH more
like
music
in
a good hall. Thanks to everyone for your advice.
Hmmm, someone who lives with live music and thinks vinyl is
much
more
like it than CD playback. And with an entry level system no
less.
Hmmm, does this mean that the next time someone suggests that
vinyl
is
less than perfect, we won't hear in response, "Well, that's
because
you've never heard a really high-end rig"?
bob
Well, I attended a piano recital by the rising star Yundi Li
last
week.
And throughout the recital, I kept thinking how close my CD rig
sounds
to the live piano I was hearing. You know, the solid sustained
notes,
Solid sustained notes? I've certainly heard this on numerous CDs
of
piano but never on a live piano. This is one of the most easily
identifiable shortcomings one can hear on most CDs. A sustained
note on
a real piano is anything but solid.
Well, I have a grand piano, and the sustained notes are solid.
Perhaps
you are too used to vinyl?
No. It is not natural for any real paino to have solid sustained
notes.
The decay of a note from a live piano is anything but solid.
Perhaps you were confused when I said solid sustained notes.
I don't think so. Perhaps you didn't mean what you said. Solid does
have a pretty well known definition.
(2) : joined without a hyphen a solid compound c : not interrupted by
a break or opening a solid wall
3 a : of uniformly close and coherent texture : not loose or spongy :
COMPACT b : possessing or characterized by the properties of a solid :
neither gaseous nor liquid .
I meant the
frequency of the notes, and not amplitude. I thought it was obvious
from
the context, but I guess one never knows.
Well there are several different overtones coming from a sustained note
from a piano, Their decay patterns are each different which creates a
sound that is constantly changing in tone, location and volume. By the
above definitions how does one find such a character of decay solid?
IMO the decay of a sustained note of a piano is quite the opposite of
the above cited definitions of solid.
So, it is perfectly natural for a real piano to have solid sustained
notes in terms of frequency stability. Now, do you still want to
argue
that it's not the case?
Yes. You are now changing your claim and yet it still doesn't hold
water in terms of human perception. If one listens to a sustained note
on a piano it does not *sound the same in tone* as it decays. Now if
one were to take a test tone or a combination of test tones and dim the
level at a constant rate in time you would have what I would call a
solid sounding sustained note. That is nothing like what one hears from
a live piano. It does acurately describe the sound of a sustained note
on any number of CDs I have listened to.
You think there are some magical process in CD's that stabilize
those
"real-life" wavering notes?
No. Simplifying a a complex signal is not magic.
Taking out the frequency variations (which caused the wavering of the
pitch) is almost magic...
No it's not.
Now, do you think the CD is capable of removing frequency
instability?
I think it is possible to get CDs in which this has happened. I don't
think it is magical or desireable.
Hey, there will certainly be fame and riches
for you if you could figure out how...
No. Just lower the resolution of any signal and ou will loose
information. I'm surprised you didn't know this already.
If you can lower the resolution and hence remove the frequency
instability, there will certainly be fame and riches for you.
Really? It's that difficult to lower the resolution of a live piano in
the recording and playback proccess? I think you are quite mistaken
here. Any telephone will do the trick quite nicely. No fame or riches
for me. Loss of resolution has been with us all along.
the great dynamic range, and so on. There was no way the LP can
reproduce that piano sound without very noticeable degradation.
There is no way any recording/playback system can reproduce a
live
piano without very noticable degradation. I doubt your system CD
player
and all are really any exception.
The degradations from a CD are much less than those from vinyl. In
fact,
I have piano recital CD's that sound very close to the real thing.
Again. I am quite skeptical of such claims.
There is nothing like listening, I guess.
An odd guess. It seems you arte assuming that I am not listening to CDs
of piano recordings. I suggest you listen more carefully if you really
believe sustained piano notes sound "solid."
Try recording the output of
the phono stage onto CD's. Voila, all the magical "complex" signals
that
you claim can only be heard on vinyl are preserved!
Been there, done that. Didn't seem to happen so well.
But, if you cannot hear the
complexity of the decay of a sustained note on a real live piano
maybe
you simply aren't picking up on the substantial differences between
a
live piano and the recording and playback of a live piano.
So you are saying that you cannot observe the complex amplitude decay
of
piano music on CD's?
I am saying that IME it is often reduced or lost on CDs.
Here is a good one for you to try out:
Emil Gilel's Beethoven Sonata #8 (Pathetique) on DG 400036-2. This is
an
early 1980 digital recording. You can easily find it at the local
library. Check out track 1. Listen to the solid frequency stability
of
the big chords. See if that sounds like a real piano in your
experience.
I'll keep an eye out for it. I don't have high expectations though. I
have heard nothing but awful sound from that label in that era.
That was
a reminder of why I like digital so much. As someone who owns a
grand
piano, I can say without any doubt that the CD sounds so much
better
than vinyl on piano music.
Opinions abound. The person who started this thread clearly
disagrees.
It seems she does speak from considerable experience with live
music.
That's my point, in case you missed it. Opinions abound. and I
speak
with considerable experience from listening to a live piano.
And yet you think the decay of a sustained note is solid. I'm
afraid
that there is more to it than just experience.
The frequency is solid.
The tone is not. That is what we percieve.
Not sure what solid decay means, since I never
used that term...
You said sustained notes. They decay as they are sustained.
decay:2 : to decrease gradually in quantity, activity, or force
In fact, I
just did.
And to the OP, someone *could* have said "But you have not
heard a
decent CD rig and decently recorded CD's!" 
But of course, we
won't
resort to that.
Of course not. You believe they all sound the same don't you?
Does
anybody believe all turntable rigs sound the same?
No, some CD rigs sound bad because of poor speakers. And then
there
are
poorly recorded/mastered CD's. Of course, the competent CD players
sound
very similar, but you know that.
I don't know that. I know some people believe that and some believe
otherwise. I have not spent much time c0omparing CD players myself.
BTW, none of Yundi Li's music is available on vinyl. Only on
CD's.
Only CD? Can't get it on MP3?
You can make mp3's out of CD's, of course. What exactly is your
point,
or do you have one?
That it can be had on more than just CD. Wasn't it obvious?
It is a rather, shall we say, pointless point then.
No.
You can of course
make cassette tapes, MD tapes out of the CD.
You can also legaly down load music on line in the form of MP3s. It is
a different medium in which commercial music can be aquired and used.
I guess according to your
logic, when someone releases a movie on DVD, it is simultaneously
released in divx, mpeg4, vcd, realmedia, windows media formats
already.
In some cases they are released on vcd. Most of those others would be
pirate copies. I am not talking about pirated copies but legal releases
on various formats.
To make it easier for you to grasp, Yundi Li's music is not released
in
vinyl. So is a lot of new classical music.
I guess *you* didn't get *my* point.
Scott Wheeler