Nousaine wrote:
I've not only taken them apart I've measured several sets of CSW speakers over
the years. They are certainly no better than Bose construction and arguably
worse. And the measured performance of the majority of their speakers in a
given class are definitely 'competitive' meaning not-much-better.
They do make several lines of small speakers. The typical ones you find
in computer and electronics stores are not their upper-end models
are better.
http://www.cambridgesoundworks.com/s...item=k1pkm28zz
This is virtually the same on paper as the Bose, but more accurate
and a lot less costly. I've heard both and the CSW edges out the
Bose by a small margin.
The $499(easy to find at ~350-400 street price) movieworks 108
system is actually not so bad. Bose doesn't make anything
as good as this(which is really telling as an Energy Take 5.2
sytem stomps on both)
Is it so hard to believe that CSW would make a legal "clone" of the
design and market them for a more sane 3-5 times over cost as
opposed to 20 times over cost?
I'm guessing that if CSW could command a premium liek that they'd be foolish
not to. But they can't .... whose fault is that?
They don't spend millions on marketing like Bose to artificially
generate the image. Note the incident with Bose and the noise
cancelling headphones they were supposed to make for the military.
They foisted off known old stock and cheap assmeblies to make
a quick dollar. They should have been run out of business for
running such a scam with taxpayer money. Eventally the military
was out their money and had to get a real manufacturer to make
one for them that worked.
Well, actually, my parents have a CSW 2.1 system on their computer
and it's been great for the last 4-5 years.
That's good. My experience has been that if I'm likely to get a speaker that
breaks during testing it will be from CSW.
They got the better $100 2.1 system. They don't sell it anymore,
but it side-by-side stomped on the Bose system. They did a
double-take and bought a pair of Tannoys instead for the same
money.
The CSW higher-end
models are actually good values in low-end audio - much better than
Kenwood or Sony or these other "HTIAB" systems.
IME HTIB speaker systems are in two performance leagues; the ones you mention
above and then the Bose,CSW, KEF et al league.
Bose is in the former with Kenwood and the like.
They use spring-loaded terminals, untreated paper cones,
have no tweeter(a 2-3 inch dynamic tweeter um - isn't one.
It's called a midrange), and are made out of thin LDF
instead of industry standard MDF.
Definately not in the upper ranks like KEF.
Those systems have many characteristics in common. None have a true subwoofer -
they're all common bass modules.
Sorry - look at the KEF. Also look at the Energy Take 5.2 That's
a real sub they mate with it in both cases.
All satellites have sharply falling dynamic
capability at the lower end of their bandwidth and all have a crossover hole
between approximately 150 and 300 Hz.
Nope. Energy and KEF do not. And there are many others that are
made as well as they are.
All the satellites have significant
midrange and upper frequency response tonal irregularites and divergent
directivity.
Again, no they do not.
http://www.energy-speakers.com/take5...ers_specs.html
80-20Khz +/-3db for the satellites. MDF, binding posts, seperate
tweeter, poly cone woofer, and rubber surrounds.
The bass they recommend is a standard E:XL-S8 subwoofer with
400watts peak and a response from 29-100hz +/- 3db
That's what you get for $600-$700 from other manufacturers
if you want a microsystem. 6*4*5.5 inches is pretty darn small
for speakers. Among microsystems, the Energy is a very solid
option that completely stomps on most other ones, including
Tannoy and several other brands because it does a simmilar
or better job for a lot less money.
KEF:
http://www.kef.com/KHT/
Well - lookie here - they added some new lines this year. There
used to be only one. Let's look at the original, the 2005.2:
80-27Khz +/-3db - Sats.
30-140Hz for the subwoofer. 250 Watts.
But let's look at the tiny new 1005 system:
First off they are tiny, sleek, and look like wall sconces more
than speakers. Definate high WAF.
120hz-22Khz +/-3db - Sats
Smaller internal cabinet volume than the Bose satelites and
much smaller visual impact due to rounded and curved edges.
38-150hz - subwoofer. 100 Watts.
So you are flat out wrong. KEF's smallest and cheapest system
they make has flat response and no "hole" - for less money
than Bose. And a real 8" woofer.(if a bit weak - still, the
Bose doesn't put out anywhere near 100W)
I've heard the midrange 2005.2 system and it's superb - just
amazing sound from something so small. Best small system
short of something esoteric like mounting NoRHs on the walls
that I have heard. A 10 inch high excursion double voicecoil
speaker in a box with a 250W amplifier - that qualifies as
a "sub" in my book.
debate IMO simply comes down to a simply buyer decision ....is size more
important than price? Or how much am I willing to pay for the small size?
Nobody gets hi-fi speakers in this deal with these product lines.
The KEF are better, smaller, and cost less. Win win win.
While Bose has been sitting on its butt for decades making minor
changes to aging technology, other firms have been innovating.
Go hear the KEF system in person. I think you'll be amazed.
Actually if I were looking for a $1300 system I'd start with Hsu research,
Paradigm and/or PSB. But it's not me.
I prefer Tannoy's MX line myself. Good low-cost capable speakers
that aren't "bright" like many small speakers.
Now I KNOW you are smoking something. The KEF system is true
dome tweeter/woofer setup in each surround and it's measured
at +/-3db with no gaps in response.
Measured by who? The marketing department? I'm not trying to be overly
argumentative here but the KEF systems I've evaluated in recent years in this
price range are in this league.
Actual tests. 4 inch woofer and a 1/2 inch dome tweeter. It's
not rocket science to build a decent little speaker these days.
Their spec pages state +/-3db and so far, all KEF speakers test
very close to their claims. Bose - doesn't even PRINT their
specs.
It also has a real 8 inch
subwoofer.
Now there's an interesting idea "real 8 inch subwoofer" ????
As opposed to a bunch of Bose flabby 5.5 inchers?
Actually, the system I had in mind has a true 10 inch subwoofer
rated at 250W. I didn't know that they had expanded into a whole
range of offerings. The 9000 series looks quite interesting, in fact.
I'll see if I can listen to them somewhere soon. If they sound as
good as I think they should, based upon the drivers, we may have
a new "low profile/flat" speaker candidate on our hands. 5 inches
deep and rounded - they sure fit into the decor well in the pictures.
Pricescan lists the 1005 system as selling for $649, and the
2005.2 system for $1299, about the same price as the Bose
surround system. Add in the price difference and mounts on
the Bose and you could easily buy a decent little receiver
and spend no more money but get several times the sound quality.
Even you could see that it's well - nasty. 13.5K high end?
I can buy a $20 4 inch speaker that goes up to 15hkz cleanly.
Wow; let me at those.
Sure.
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showd...number=264-820
There's your 15Khz full-range 4 inch driver for $20.
It's not great, but it does show the Bose has no excuse. 13.5Khz
means they need a seperate tweeter.
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showd...number=297-356
Here's what I had in mind. It's $45.25 here, but if Bose
were buying direct, their price would likely be near $20.
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showd...number=269-685
If you've seen this speaker, you're not dreaming - it is
a standard unit used in several HTIAB type setups. Slap in
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showd...number=275-065
or simmilar and make a decent-range satellite.
And this is just crap from an E-tailer. A place like Madisound
sells real high-quality drivers. They carry many brands. The
Aurasound seem to be superb for small full range use.
The NS3-193-8-S43 seems like a perfect choice and is only 3 inches.
Small decent range speakers do exist that aren't that expensive,
espeically if you are a big company that buys millions of them
at steep discounts.
This is what Bose should be able to do - as these are $199 a
pair, shipped(no tax). 4 plus a center($275) is $673.
Add a decent subwoofer and you're at $1000-$1300.
I'd be a little skeptical of a single driver full range system (isn't that what
the 901 is?) that is based on fanciful ideas such as:
Well, it is possible. Something like a Fostex FX200 comes close.
The F200A is 30hz-20Khz, which is respectable, if really expensive.