Scott wrote:
On Mar 18, 6:28am, Sebastian Kaliszewski
wrote:
Scott wrote:
[...]
On Mar 2, 9:31am, Sebastian Kaliszewski wrote:
Scott wrote:
The
primary conclusion in question was that the clocks on DSOTM were
recorded in a dead studio space but the fact is they were recorded
individually in various clock stores.
So? The primary conslusion was the they were close miked and probably
recorded in rather dead space. The conclusion seems pretty right.
But it is actually clearly wrong. several clock shops is pretty far
from being the same as an acoustically dead studio space.
Well, you were provided with factual information to the contrary.
Information backed by (basic) physics (see below).
No I wasn't. you did not provide any such factual information nor did
you back it with any physics.
I have. See below.
[...snip...]
Yikes. Arny, the album was
recorded at Abby Road studios. The recording spaces are hardly dead
there.
Wchich one?
I said spaces which is a plural. Why are you asking which one which is
singular?
So may I rephprase: Which ones?
studios 1,2 and 3.
Which is not the case based on the very description presented on the
Abbey Road webpage, esp. the studio 3.
It is the case if one understands the basic terminology of room
acoustics. I provided references to that terminology with a link to a
well written article on room acoustics.
You have provided link to simple explanation of anechoic chamber. Link to
wiki-type service. You have attacked others for using similar type
sources. So, please, be consistent, at least.
Until you can provide
references that trump the ones I have provided you don't really get to
rewrite the books and articles on the subject that hold court.
I have. See below.
You can read up on the subject at the Abby Road
studios website.
I did.
But one does have to have a basic understanding of room acoustics and
the terminology used for describing room acoustics to understand that
the description of the three studios clearly is not one of an
acoustically dead studio space.
Reread the description of Studio 3...
[...]
But first you might want to read up on the basics of
concert hall acoustics and anechoic chambers so you don't make the
mistake of confusing an excellent concert venue for orchestral music
with an acoustically dead space.
Mistaking anechoic chambers and acoustically dead studios noted.
No mistake was made. I offered an excellent reference to the meaning
of acoustically dead space. you have offered nothing to refute that.
Again, just sayin it don't make it so.
Mistaking concert and recording venue noted.
Really? Again you might want to take this issue up with Abby Road
Studios themselves.
[repeated studio 1 description snipped]
http://www.abbeyroad.com/studios/studio1/
But why you insist on studio 1, while it is least likely to be used for
the dicussed recording.
[irrelevant attack snipped]
Sorry, Scott, but the mentioned terms all have estabilished meaning in the
audio engineering. So, yes, venue could be 'too dead', 'quite dead', 'very
dead', etc. Ridiculing that won't help.
Example quote: "For my open baffle speaker designs a room becomes too dead
when its RT60 falls below 500 ms". This is direct quote from Siegfired
Linkwitz when he talks about room acoustics. He is the man (one of the
two) behind Linkwitz-Riley crossover (things used in vast amounts of audio
equipment in the wild), designer of loudspeakres, etc. I think, we could
safely assume that Dr. Linkwitz knows the terminology...
That's nice. but it doesn't support anything you have said. a less
lively room is a more dead room relatively speaking but that does not
make a room a dead room per se. An anechoic chamber is a dead room by
definition. anything with more reverb is a less dead room.
http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu...revtim.html#c3
Some quotes from the above link:
"The optimum reverberation time for an auditorium or room of course
depends upon its intended use. Around 2 seconds is desirable for a
medium-sized, general purpose auditorium that is to be used for both
speech and music. A classroom should be much shorter, less than a second.
And a recording studio should minimize reverberation time in most cases
for clarity of recording."
"0.3s - 'Dead' sound, difficulty hearing in back, loss of bass in back"
[...]
That in one case
they recorded a man running around the chamber doesn't mean they didn't
use the chamber other ways. Especially the whole album heavely used then
state of the art processing.
really? do tell us about the processing Alan Parsons used on DSOTM. Do
tell us what other ways the echo chamber was used in recording DSOTM.
I won't do your homework. The facts are such, that DSoM was heavely
processed (one of the most processed "high rank" recordings of its time).
Well how about doing what you demand of me and support your assertions
with references. My position was and is that the assertion that the
recording was done in an acoustically dead studio space and then
artificial reverb was added later is simply not true. I have clearly
debunked the assertion that it was recorded in an acoustically dead
studio space. as for the artificial reverb.. here is a quote fromt he
recording engineer.
http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/au...n_parsons.html
Any effects created before 1975 were done with either tape or echo
chambers or some kind of acoustic treatment. No magic black boxes!
Funny, you use the quite talking about using echo chambers
The fact is that it was heavely multi track recorderd as well. If you
assert, that echo chamber was never included in the processing chain
except that one particular use, present material to back it up, please.
I have not made any such assertion. you might want to read what I have
written more carefully. Now if you want to discuss other uses of an
echo chamber in the recording of DSOTM please cite specific tracks and
we will discuss them.
Please decide on something. First you fight any statement that echo
chamber was used for something other than those "steps in echo chamber
recording" and then this...
[...snip...]
As funny as confusing an acoustically dead studio space with multiple
clock shops?
Acoustically dead studio space is not anechoic. That's the estabilished
nomenclature. You might not like it, but it's there and if you wan't to
have a meaningful dicussion you have no other option, but to accept it.
Sorry but I am going with the literature on room acoustics over your
word. If you feel you have any references in the literature that
trumps whT I have already provided then please present it.
Otherwise...just sayin it doesn't make it so.
See above, see below. Chceck basic physics.
And then, I've actually shown that nothing prevents typical clock shop
from being pretty dead acoustically.
But I have.
You didn't, as you ignored wave physics.
They are called reflective surfaces and every clock shop I
have ever been in is filled with them. of course the real irony here
is that the particular piece we are talking about is pretty rich with
reverb. Is it your position that Alan Parsons went to the trouble of
deadening the various clock shops in which he recorded the clocks and
then later added the reverb in the mix?
He didn't have to deaden anything. Close miking plus shop acoustics
(small, packed room, with fetures i've already extensively discussed) did
their job.
And yet you conclusions direactly above based on your expertise as a
recordist was "DSOTM was created in a studio or studios, which are
generally (with a few exceptions) acousticaly dead." ooops.....
Arny's conslusions are generally right. Oooooops...
No they are consistantly wrong as shown by actual facts about the
recording of DSOTM.
Which facts? Would you be so kind to present some?
I already did. If you didn't get them the first time why should I
expect you to get it the next time?
Nope, you presented your conclusions coming from your misunderstanding of
the terminology, as well as misreading Abbey descritptions. And, as we all
know, a conslusion based on false (mistaken) premise is not a fact.
You mean like my misreading of Studio one being both a recording
studio as well as a concert hall where they tell us that Abby Road
studio one is a good venue for recording as well as live concerts?
Again, what has Studio one to DSoTM?
[...]
It's "good" for absorbing acoustical energy at all
frequencies provided the material is thick enough.
The problem is that for low frequencies the material won't be thick enough.
So you are personally running around the world making sure that there
is such a limiit on thicknesses? Really?
I don't have to. Carpets, draperies, courtains have rather limited
thickness. Thickness below 1/10 wave length is considered insignificant.
this is basic
knowlegde in the world of room acoustics. Oooops.
Nope, it's only your misconception, not basic knowledge in the world of
room acoustics. The real basic knowledge in the world of room acoustics it
that thickness of the material must be non neglible compared to wave20
length. I'll leave calculating 100-400Hz wave lengths as a little homework
assignment to you.
It's about 11 feet. although if it is against a reflective wall we are
talking 5 1/2 feet.
Nope. Wave length is wavelength regardless of being against reflective wall.
I suppose you live in a universe where this can
not exist?
"Corrugations" clocks on the wall form is. Then the rest of
furniture (which typically includes soft one) does the trick.
No it doesn't. At best it will provide some crude diffusion.
Nope. Check wave physics 101 first, please. This is in fact the very same
physics which make CD, DVD, and similar optical media players work at all
(only the wave is of different kind, being acoustic not electromagnetic).
Then, as an additional effect clock boxes provide sound traps. For more,
see below.
If you care to provide any legitimate references that support your
assertion that crude diffusion will make a room acoustically dead as
such a term is used in room acosutics then pleae provide a link. Just
sayin it don't make it true. you demand such references from me and I
actually come up wih the goods.
Nope. it's not crude diffusion, it's (destructive) interference of
reflections. Besides, diffusion works betters on corrugations in the order
of full wave length and longer (i.e. from 4 times bigger upwards)
Again, read how em-wave (light) is being modulated by surface of
CD/DVD/BlueRay disc. Little tip: disc surface is full of peaks and valleys
1/4 wave deep
This is all wave physics 101. This is how such things like optical media,
antennas as well as sound (And any other wave) reflection and transmission
on media boundaries works.
[...]
Dead acoustic spaces generally cost
lots of money to build (anechoic chambers and the like)
I've explicitly I do not equate dead space with anechoinc.
Sorry but you don't get to make that determination. You are not the
arbitrator of room acoustics terminology.
Neither are you. And it's you who equate anechoic with just 'pretty dead'
or 'basically dead', contrary to the terminology used in the field.
But i provided a varifiable reference that discusses the terminology.
again if you have a reference that trumps mine then provide it.
I have. That you're ignoring it is not my problem.
Otherwise all you offer is opinion stated as fact.
Nope, it's estabilished terminology. It was you who tried to ridicule that
by claims that one can't be "somewhat dead".
Anechoic is
extremely dead.
Seriously? "extremely dead?" Are we having a "Princess Bride"
flashback? Dead is dead.
See above. You're creating your own terminology. A terminology in
disagreemens with what specuialists in the field use.
See what above? Your opinion stated over and over again? I have read
the literature on the subject and provided you with a link to such
literature that supports my assertions.
Nope, you've provided link to source with quality similar to wikipedia.
You've attacked others about using such sources. So, please, be consitent.
Again, after Dr. Linkwitz: "...a room becomes too dead when its RT60 fall= below 500 ms". 500ms RT60 is quite far away from anechoic. Oooooooops
He is talking specifically about the use of his speakers. Jeez. He
certainly is not talking about the studios at Abby Road. So yeah,
oooops.
See the other quote. Ooooooops.
[...]
The terminology is established.
Indeed.
Your consideration is
irrelevant.
It's enough for me that it's in agreement with terminology used in the
field
Prove it. I have offered my proof. Your turn
See above.
so do tell us
how they haphazardly happen more often than not in clock shops of all
things. all the clock shops I've been in (and I have actual been in
one in London no less) have fairly reflective walls that they use to
hang clocks which themselves have fairly reflective surfaces. so do
tell us about these acoustically dead clock shops that are more common
than not.
Rather densely packed space.
Why would you assume that about the clock shops Alan Parsons recorded?
Why would you assume the contrary? I'm just describing typical clock shop
Please cite a typical clock shop.
Here are some images randomly chosen of various clock shops. Clearly
they are not acoustically dead spaces
http://search.aol.com/aol/image?qclo...v_tcomsearch50
That link does not work.
in your typical European city. Or, could you point to particular shops
where Parsons did his recordings (and demosntrate that the're not typical
clock shops in a typical Western city)?
You have yet to show that a "typical" clock shop in any city is
acoustically dead. I have now offered a link that randomly shows
various clock shops. the first 10 are anything but acoustccially dead
spaces but quite obviously fairly reverberant spaces due to all the
reflective surfaces. Again I bring the goods and you bring opinion
stated as fact.
Your link does not work. But here are some which hopefully do:
http://www.google.pl/imgres?imgurl=h... =1912&bih=956
http://www.google.pl/imgres?imgurl=h... 1912&bih=956
http://www.google.pl/imgres?imgurl=h... 1&um=1&itbs=1
http://www.google.pl/imgres?imgurl=h... 1912&bih=956
Lot of little corners and "corrugations"
Which does next to nothing to actually deadening a sound space as the
term dead is actually used in room acoustics.
It does when those boxes disminsions are close to quarter-wave length
I think you are making a pretty wild claim here that ignores
the basics of room acoustics.
Nope. My claim is pretty well supported by room acoustics physics.
references please.
Check any wave physics 101 handbook.
I have. You are wrong.
Nope, I'm right. (Re)read about interference between direct and reflected
wave, and it's effects. Read about what happens when the wave is
reflected (reflected without phase reversal which is the case when
reflecting from higher impedance media boundary) from two surfaces 1/4
wave length apart (like peaks and vallyes in CD grove, or a wall with a
piece of furniture 1/4 wave thick).
I recomend to you reading about such basic concepts like wave
interference. Esp, what happens to a wave reflecting from a corrugated
area with depth being close to quarter it's length. All in all it's
absortion rate of 0.5 in the range of wavelenghts for which evenly
distributed corrugation sizes are close to quarter wave dimensions.
I suggest you visit some clock shops!
I did. They're rather small and densely packed.
Absorbtive material is good for mid-high and high frequencies.
This is the second time you have repeated this error in fact.
saying it twice doesn't make it so.
http://www.answers.com/topic/anechoic-chamber-2
"Free-field conditions can be approximated when the absorption by the
boundaries of the room approaches 100%. To reduce sound reflected by
the boundaries to a minimum, the absorption coefficient must be very
high and the surface areas of the boundaries should be large."
Reread the last sentence. Then (re)read the fragment from the very page
you quoted (but you didn't mention):
Your point?
See below.
"In order to achieve large surface area, a wall construction is used that
includes wedges of sound absorptive material, the base of which is usually
between 8 C397 8 in. (20 C397 20 cm) and 8 C397 24 in. (20 C397 60 cm), and the length
of which is usually 3 to 5 ft (0.9 to 1.5 m). These wedges resemble
stalagmites and stalactites and absorb about 99% of incident sound energy
over most of the audio-frequency ranges."
All of this is of course a description how to create anechoic (extremely
dead) space, not some 'pretty dead'.
Bottom line is it completely supports my assertions and refutes yours
and yet you are now citing it as support? fact is it states an
anechoic chamber is an acoustically dead space and visa versa and it
shows it being done with absorbtive material, something you claim
absorbtive material is not good for doing. Oooooooooops.
Bottom line is that this absorbitve material surface is corrugated "a
little" bit (it has peaks and valleys 3 to 5ft deep).
As there is still significant acoustical impedance difference between air
and absorbtive foam, without those corrugations there would be too much
reflected sound energy.
Below that
wall filled with cabinets of various sizes with holes of various sizes is
quite good absorber.
Reference please.
See above. It's basic physics.
Show me a reference.
It's basic physics. Do you also need a reference that Earth is not flat?
Room is considered prettey dead if it's RT60 (reverberation time down to
-60dB) is below 0.2-0.3s. Mind, that typical living room RT60 is about
0.6s. To get such time for your typical (living or clock schop) room one
needs an absortion rate of only 0.16. As demonstrated above, abosortion
rate is much higher. Absortion rate of about 1/3 is good enough to get
RT60 down to 0.25s.
Well we were talking about studio spaces were we not? and we were
talking about the claim that DSOTM was recorded in a studio space that
was acoustically dead, not "pretty dead" but dead. Now go back to the
abby Road Studios webpage and do tell me which of those studios as
they stand are either acoustically dead as in an anechoic chamber or
(lets allow you to move the bar and ignore the original claim) even
pretty dead as you descibe a "pretty dead" room.
Reread description of Studio 3. The read text from the link provided.
[...]
Again let's look at your
assertions as quoted from above. "Getting the DSOTM clock to sound
like it is entirely possible with the CD version, mid-fi electronics
and speakers that are well-configured for the room." "What is known
for sure is that DSOTM was created in a studio or studios, which are
generally (with a few exceptions) acousticaly dead." " No experienced
recording engineer would need such a thing (a photo of the mic
configuration from the actual recording session) to reach the
conclusion that I've provided."
Nothing strange or wrong with that.
Other than the fact that the conclusion reached was painfully
incorrect?
Fact? The fact is it was generally correct!
I suppose if one doesn't understand the difference between an
acoustically dead studio space and mulitple clock shops.
As noted above, acoustically dead studio is pretty never anechoic.
Or more accurately studio spaces are almost never acoustically dead as
the term is actually used in descriptions of room acoustics.
There are dead as the term is actually used in audio enineering terminology.
"And a recording studio should minimize reverberation time in most cases
for clarity of recording" - quote from the link provided above.
You
should not derive your understanding of matters based on mistaken
understanding of the terminology actually used in the field.
Unlike you I have actually provided a reference that explicitely
states what is an acoustically dead space. It's an anechoic chamber by
definition. If you want to argue with my reference then please at
least cite a better one that explicitely talks about what is and is
not an "acoustically dead space."
Nope, you have provided conviniently trimmed quote from a same kind (and
quality) source you attacked others for using. Apply same standards to you
and to otheres.
To summarize, as I'm tired of explaing that black is black and white is
white and Earth is not flat, so this is my last post in this thread...
* Rooms with RT60 at or below 0.3s are described as acoustically dead --
this is estabilished terminology.
* Not large rooms (as typical clock shop would be) have shorter RT60 than
large rooms with same wall (and floor and ceiling) acoustic reflectance --
for a simple reason that in smaller rooms sound undergoes more reflections
in the same period of time.
* Wave reflecting from corrugated surface with corrugation depths in range
of 1/4 wave length undergoes significant destructive interference and is
significantly absorbed by the material on the other side of the surface
(this is called impedance matching).
* As the surface has different corrugations which act on different wave
lengths absorbtion won't be 100% but it dosn't need to. 30% absobrion rate
is enough to make clock shop sized room acoustically dead (accoring to
widely accepted definition of acoustically dead).
* Hence, the claim the clocks in DSoTM were not close miked in generally
acoustically dead rooms is hard to defend
* Alan Parson himself claimed that before 1975 echo chambers vere used as
effects in recordings
rgds
\SK
--
"Never underestimate the power of human stupidity" -- L. Lang
--
http://www.tajga.org -- (some photos from my travels)