[Peter Wieck]

Please note the interpolations. Please forgive the snippage.


On Thursday, October 18, 2012 10:48:52 PM UTC-4, Audio_Empire wrote:
In article ,

Peter Wieck wrote:



On Thursday, September 27, 2012 8:01:35 PM UTC-4, Howard Davis wrote:







It is unreasonable to expect that expensive high-performance speakers like



these will not become defective within 20 years if not abused?



In a word, Yes!



It is unreasonable to _EXPECT_ it. In general, I look at any mechanical

device as an equation in several variables being:



a) Purpose

b) Initial quality

c) Cost

d) Performance

e) Use density



So, an electric drill, while a tool has a much different purpose than a

hammer. And an Estwing hammer is of a much greater cost than a piece of

Chinese Junque, while at a typically substantially higher first cost. It will

also likely perform better. SNIP


While I agree with your premise, I don't think you picked a good

example. While I wouldn't expect a cheap Harbor-Freight electric drill

from China to last more than a couple of years, even with light use, I

would expect that a new US made Porter- Cable electric drill would last

many years. I have my father's Porter-Cable drill that he bought,

probably back in the 1940's. It survived his use (he built furniture as

a hobby) and it survived my childhood abuse (not inconsiderable). When

my father passed, that old drill came down to me. It still works fine

after more than 60 years.

That is a good thing. But back in the day when I worked for a carpentry sub-contractor, the finest screwguns (Porter-Cable, Milwaukee & DeWalt) lasted perhaps 3 months - and were then sent back to the manufacturer for rebuild.. They ran pretty much 6 hours per day, 5 days a week - not abuse, just extremely heavy use.

OTOH, I bought a hammer out of a one-dollar

tool bin when I first came to California back in the late 1960's. I seem

to recall it had a made in Taiwan sticker on it (long since gone). It is

the only hammer I've ever owned. It is one-piece, drop forged, with a

rubber handle grip. There's nothing to break. The rubber, conceivably,

could have deteriorated, I guess, but it hasn't. The hammer works fine,

and why wouldn't it?

That is an easy answer to give. With respect, one day try a Vaughn or Estwing hammer, even a Klein. Try it when doing what I would call heavy trim - such as handrails on a deck or some such when each nail must be blunted and a nail-gun just does not cut it. Then, try the Taiwan hammer. A well made, well balanced hammer does not tire the user, does not slip off the nail head and follows the wrist of the user. Either is adequate for the occasional nail. But that is not the point. Almost any speaker is adequate for intercom use - not so much for audio use.






I would not expect any electric tool to last 20 years of hard use without

maintenance.



Maintenance is required for many mechanical manufactured goods, that's

true. But some things not only don't need maintenance, but there's

nothing to maintain. This is true of speakers. How does one maintain a

speaker? By not abusing it? Well, I suppose you call that maintenance if

you stretched the definition of the word somewhat. Speakers can be

repaired but not really "maintained" like a car or a washing machine.


Respectfully, "maintenance" means replacing parts before they break. Apparently your school of maintenance might be "allow it to fail", then replace the failed part. Try that on the timing-belt in an interference engine in a car and you will understand the difference between maintenance and repair. Replacing crossover capacitors before they open (or worse, short) is the functional equivalent of replacing a timing belt. Cleaning pots and connectors is the functional equivalent of an oil-change. Removing dust from drivers, oiling the wood - it comes down to care-and-feeding.


Speakers are the functional equivalent of electrical tools. And have internal

components, parts and pieces subject to time (not use) related deterioration

- capacitors, speaker surrounds, glues and so forth. Some of which may be

relevant, some not. In summary, parts may deteriorate with use, certain

types of magnets for one, some by abuse, some by age, some by all three..

Further, what constitutes 'abuse' will also change with age.



This is true, yet I know someone who is 83 years old and owns two

Electrovoice floor-standing 3-way speaker systems that he bought back in

the 1950's. Both still work fine (they don't sound all that good by

modern standards, but then they never did.)



At this time, I have six (6) sets of speakers in use. SNIP But all of the others from the Maggies to the AR3as have had

maintenance or repairs made to one extent or another from a new ribbon

tweeter for the Maggies (my fault and a $140 fix) to a complete rebuild of

the crossovers (AR3as), to new surrounds to refinishing the exteriors and

installation of new grille-cloth.

Installing new surrounds may be a PITA, but they are cheap

and don't take much time. Nothing like peeling raisins or counting sugar...

As only one example.



This is repair, not maintenance.

I respectfully disagree. Between age and materials-choices, things wear out and fail. One may get ahead of the bus and *maintain* prior to failure, or be under the bus and wait until a catastrophic failure takes place and then make a *repair*. I prefer the former over the latter. And using the Surrounds as the example - they give plenty of warning before they fail - and so allow replacement prior to a crisis and _BEFORE_ potential voice-coil damage.


But, if you think you are being ill-used by getting only 20 years out of your

speakers - I truly suggest you should build your own. In that way you may

have complete control of what goes into them, what you expect from them and

the longevity you wish to achieve. There is lots of information out there on

how to do it as well.



In the case of speakers, there are things at play here over which the

consumer has no control. I mentioned a few of them a couple of weeks ago

on this forum. Glue that attacks the grid wires on older Magneplanars,

foam surrounds that deteriorate due to pollutants in the air, cones that

dry out due to the low humidity and forced air heat used in many parts

of the country, etc.

I keep Maggies of a certain vintage and I am well aware of that phenomenon. I keep them out of direct sunlight. Not really a big deal. In my conversations with Magnepan over the years, they have been extremely forthcoming on how to prevent coil separation - and what to do should it start - starting with black 'socks'. IOW, their customer-service has been first-rate, direct, unapologetic, and supportive. Their parts, when needed, have been quite inexpensive relative to their competition. That ribbon tweeter cost me a total of $140, including shipping a 6' PVC tube in both directions (they wanted the core back for rebuild). An AR3a tweeter would run me $80 or so, and the 'core' would be landfill.

Paper cones may be easily maintained against 'drying out' - albeit at an initial alteration of the properties of the paper - as I remember, the formula goes something like: 1 part conventional, fresh rubber cement, 1 part conventional fresh contact Cement, 10 parts VM&P Naptha, painted on the cone with a soft brush and allowed to dry for 48 hours in a dust-free environment.. This will soften the paper during the drying process, and add a tiny bit of weight overall - but the alternative is re-coning - an imprecise (relative to cone weight) and painstaking process at least.


The only recourse here is to replace the damaged components. After 20

years, it's unrealistic to expect the manufacturer to accept the burden

of the costs of such repairs, but you'd be surprised at the number of

high-end manufacturers who will do just that!

They do, and to my way of thinking, they should not unless it is for a recognized process/materials failure that they coulda-shoulda known - similar to a vehicle recall, or a bad run of parts, or the equivalent. Point being that if they are truly competent and high-end (using Magnepan as an example), you, the rest of the world an I want them to remain in business, supportive of their product and so forth. Expecting them to bleed ad infinitum threatens that survival for no good reason whatsoever. That they _have_ the parts or are willing to _make_ the parts at a reasonable cost and that they are willing to make any repair to any of their speakers, also at a reasonable cost is far more than enough in my opinion.

I keep a lot of vintage equipment. And I rebuild a fair amount of it that I have rescued from landfill, junk-piles and/or dusty shelves in the back of repair-shops. I see on a regular basis the difference between 'maintenance' and 'failure', much of that failure being utterly needless - the proverbial pound of care caused by careful avoidance of that ounce of prevention. The simple act of removing a grille-cloth to dust the drivers (yes, dust goes through the cloth) will allow for a visual inspection of things... you get the picture.

Sorry for the semi-rant.

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA