Synchronizing TSR8 to DAW [Archive]

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Chris Rossi

July 3rd 03, 05:41 PM

Howdy, I'm looking at trying to synch up my TSR8 to my DAW. I just
read Anlogeezer's woes last year trying to make his DAW chase his
analog deck. Which just reaffirms my suspicions that you really need
to make the analog deck follow the DAW (or common stable external
source) and not the other way around.

So, I see there's plenty of stuff to convert SMPTE to MTC and back
again which is nifty. But I still need something to control the
transport on the analog deck and keep it locked to an external time
source. The Tascam products to do this back in the day were the ES-50
which connects to the 37 pin connector, and the MTS-1000 MIDiiIZER
which connects to the 15 pin connector.

Since these old units are hard to find, I'm trying to figure out what,
if any, alternatives there are. The 15 pin connector seems to be the
most promising as it is basically an rs232 serial port. I keep
hearing about this Sony "9 pin" protocol, which I think is also just
utilizing an rs232 serial port. The manual for the TSR8, beyond
saying it's a serial port, doesn't give any hint as to what protocol
is used on it. Is it possible that it is the same protocol used by
Sony? Is it possible my deck conforms to some kind of industry wide
standard? Anybody have any info either way?

I'm especially interested in hearing from folks who've actually done
this.

thanks,
rossi

Mike Rivers

July 3rd 03, 11:09 PM

In article > writes:

> Howdy, I'm looking at trying to synch up my TSR8 to my DAW. I just
> read Anlogeezer's woes last year trying to make his DAW chase his
> analog deck. Which just reaffirms my suspicions that you really need
> to make the analog deck follow the DAW (or common stable external
> source) and not the other way around.

> So, I see there's plenty of stuff to convert SMPTE to MTC and back
> again which is nifty. But I still need something to control the
> transport on the analog deck and keep it locked to an external time
> source. The Tascam products to do this back in the day were the ES-50
> which connects to the 37 pin connector, and the MTS-1000 MIDiiIZER
> which connects to the 15 pin connector.

You don't just need the connector, you need the stuff inside the
recorder to take time code in, compare it to the time code read off
the tape, and continually adjust the speed so that they match. Some
TASCAM and Fostex recorders were equipped with a synchronizer, but
most recorders aren't. There's a lot more to it than just starting it
running at the right place.

I don't recall the geezer's problem, but the conventional method when
one of the devices is a DAW is to synchronize the DAW to the recorder,
using time code coming from a track on the tape as the reference. A
DAW doesn't need time to wind to position, it starts and stops
instantly, and it can derive a clock signal from the time code to keep
it in sync with the tape.

> I keep
> hearing about this Sony "9 pin" protocol, which I think is also just
> utilizing an rs232 serial port.

Yeah, but it's what it does with that serial data that needs to be
inside the machine. That protocol was designed around video recorders
and grew into small format analog recorders when they became popular
with small time video production shops.

> The manual for the TSR8, beyond
> saying it's a serial port, doesn't give any hint as to what protocol
> is used on it. Is it possible that it is the same protocol used by
> Sony?

It's possible, but I don't think it is.

--
I'm really Mike Rivers - )

Chris Rossi

July 4th 03, 03:20 AM

(Mike Rivers) wrote in message news:<znr1057264240k@trad>...
> In article > writes:
>
> > Howdy, I'm looking at trying to synch up my TSR8 to my DAW. I just
> > read Anlogeezer's woes last year trying to make his DAW chase his
> > analog deck. Which just reaffirms my suspicions that you really need
> > to make the analog deck follow the DAW (or common stable external
> > source) and not the other way around.
>
> > So, I see there's plenty of stuff to convert SMPTE to MTC and back
> > again which is nifty. But I still need something to control the
> > transport on the analog deck and keep it locked to an external time
> > source. The Tascam products to do this back in the day were the ES-50
> > which connects to the 37 pin connector, and the MTS-1000 MIDiiIZER
> > which connects to the 15 pin connector.
>
> You don't just need the connector, you need the stuff inside the
> recorder to take time code in, compare it to the time code read off
> the tape, and continually adjust the speed so that they match. Some
> TASCAM and Fostex recorders were equipped with a synchronizer, but
> most recorders aren't. There's a lot more to it than just starting it
> running at the right place.
>
Maybe I should have been more clear. I'm aware that this is the
problem. The two interfaces on the tape deck allow an external
synchronizer to vary the speed of the motors to keep it in synch.
Such a box would take SMPTE from the tape deck, MTC from an external
source, and control the tape motors to keep the tape deck locked up to
the external source. The external source in this case is MTC comming
out of my DAW.

The question is, essentially, what might do this for me? I think
these machines were run all the time with external synchronizers. I
think the same box that you would have used to lock up two TSR-8s
should also be able to lock up the TSR-8 to anything else that
generates MTC. The box Tascam sold was the MTS-1000. That was some
time ago and they don't appear to be easy to find. I'm trying to
figure out if the interface to control the tape deck motors was
standard and could be done by some other box as well.

> I don't recall the geezer's problem, but the conventional method when
> one of the devices is a DAW is to synchronize the DAW to the recorder,
> using time code coming from a track on the tape as the reference. A
> DAW doesn't need time to wind to position, it starts and stops
> instantly, and it can derive a clock signal from the time code to keep
> it in sync with the tape.
>
I don't know. My gut instinct says, keep the digital locked to the
best word clock you can get (I'm just using the soundcard, but may
someday have the cash for a good external clock) to keep the jitter to
the minimum and have the analog slaved to that. I'm all ears, though,
if people have success stories that took a different route.

> > I keep
> > hearing about this Sony "9 pin" protocol, which I think is also just
> > utilizing an rs232 serial port.
>
> Yeah, but it's what it does with that serial data that needs to be
> inside the machine. That protocol was designed around video recorders
> and grew into small format analog recorders when they became popular
> with small time video production shops.
>
Or use an external synchronizer.

> > The manual for the TSR8, beyond
> > saying it's a serial port, doesn't give any hint as to what protocol
> > is used on it. Is it possible that it is the same protocol used by
> > Sony?
>
> It's possible, but I don't think it is.
>
It's weird that they don't give any information on the protocol. It
seems weird that they'd give enough layout and schematics to build
your own tape deck but won't tell you what bits are being sent on that
port and what they mean and whether it's a standard protocol.

Oh well,

rossi

Mike Rivers

July 4th 03, 04:28 PM

In article > writes:

> The two interfaces on the tape deck allow an external
> synchronizer to vary the speed of the motors to keep it in synch.
> Such a box would take SMPTE from the tape deck, MTC from an external
> source, and control the tape motors to keep the tape deck locked up to
> the external source. The external source in this case is MTC comming
> out of my DAW.
>
> The question is, essentially, what might do this for me?

Well, it's called a "synchronizer." That's what the TASCAM MTS-1000
(MIDIizer), ATS-500, ES-50, and Fostex equivalents are.

> I think
> these machines were run all the time with external synchronizers.

Well, not "all the time." Maybe a few dozen. If they were, there would have been more
synchronizers sold, and it would be easier to find one at a civilized
price now.

> think the same box that you would have used to lock up two TSR-8s
> should also be able to lock up the TSR-8 to anything else that
> generates MTC. The box Tascam sold was the MTS-1000.

Yup. It's a great box. I think that the Adam-Smith synchronizers would
talk to a TASCAM recorder. You bought those with the appropriate
interface module and firmware.

> I don't know. My gut instinct says, keep the digital locked to the
> best word clock you can get (I'm just using the soundcard, but may
> someday have the cash for a good external clock) to keep the jitter to
> the minimum and have the analog slaved to that. I'm all ears, though,
> if people have success stories that took a different route.

When I was testing the first generation Layla for a review, I set it
up along with my Ampex MM-1100, and Music Quest MQX-32M MIDI interface
card to take SMPTE time code from the tape and send it to Cool Edit
Pro. With the Layla set to sync to time code, I was really impressed
with how good it sounded. It's all about having a good clock
stabilizer (ever audio interface has one) inside the box. Usually
you'll see it referred to as a PLL (Phase Locked Loop) and like
everything else, there are good and bad designs.

My advice, since you're not up and running with this yet, is to use
what you have available and see what problems you run into. You can do
it today (I think). It could be simpler than you fear. Don't be afraid
to try what someone else has had a problem with. They might have been
using different equipment, different software, or the moon was in a
different phase that day (all of which have been known to affect the
performance of a digital system).

--
I'm really Mike Rivers - )

Mike Rivers

July 5th 03, 02:46 PM

In article > writes:

> The one thing I can't remember is if the Midi-izer can take MTC (from
> a DAW) and convert back into SMPTE...

According to the brochure it "Offers both MIDI-to-timecode and and
tape transport synchronization/control." I didn't think that MIDI time
code was invented in 1991 but maybe so. Or maybe that's not quite what
it means. If it doesn't, MTC-SMPTE time code converters are cheap. By
the way, the MTS-1000 Midiizer cost $1999 in 1991.

> Depending on how you want to work you really might be better off with
> what I was trying to do, which was have the DAW chase the deck...I
> figure the computer can relocate a lot easier and with less wear and
> tear than the deck can.

This is true, and the couple of times that I've played with doing
that, it worked fine.

> I have not tested this, but apparently the box that can make this
> happen is the Aardsync II, it will take SMPTE from an analog deck and
> output MTC and wordclock to sync the DAW to the deck.

Nope, not the Aardsync II. It doesn't have a MIDI or SMPTE time code
input. It will resolve word clock to black burst video, but that's
about it. The Rosendahl Nanosyncs will resolve the word clock output
to incoming linear (SMPTE) time code.

The reality of life is that for the length of a _typical_ song, if you
start the tape and the DAW at the same place, and don't do anything
silly like record one track of a pair on the tape and the other on the
DAW, they'll stay in sync to musical accuracy long enough to mix a
song. If they don't, the tape deck is running at the wrong speed
(which you can hopefully adjust). Also, most DAW programs have an
option of using time code as the clock source if the hardware will
support it. As I said, the Layla and Cool Edit Pro did, surprisingly
well, and that's several years old. I wouldn't be surprised if it's
pretty common now.

--
I'm really Mike Rivers - )

Chris Rossi

July 6th 03, 11:22 PM

Hey guys. I appreciate everyone's response. I'm bad at actually
wording my question, I guess, since it's basically just: does the
15pin interface on the TSR-8 conform to some standard that would allow
me to use it potentially with a non-Tascam synchronizer? Just trying
to see what my options are.

(Mike Rivers) wrote in message news:<znr1057402347k@trad>...
> In article > writes:
>
> > The one thing I can't remember is if the Midi-izer can take MTC (from
> > a DAW) and convert back into SMPTE...
>
> According to the brochure it "Offers both MIDI-to-timecode and and
> tape transport synchronization/control." I didn't think that MIDI time
> code was invented in 1991 but maybe so. Or maybe that's not quite what
> it means. If it doesn't, MTC-SMPTE time code converters are cheap. By
> the way, the MTS-1000 Midiizer cost $1999 in 1991.
>
Well, someone just put up one on E-bay, along with an ES-50 and ES-51.
Starting bid on the MTS-1000 is $99. No reserve. I actually bid on
the ES-50 so we'll see what happens. I'm not 100% positive it will do
what I need, but for <$100 I'm willing to find out.

Since I don't already have a SMPTE to MTC converter, I'd have to buy
something anyway.

> > Depending on how you want to work you really might be better off with
> > what I was trying to do, which was have the DAW chase the deck...I
> > figure the computer can relocate a lot easier and with less wear and
> > tear than the deck can.
>
> This is true, and the couple of times that I've played with doing
> that, it worked fine.
>
Y'all have convinced to try both approaches and see what happens. If
I can't get hold of a synchronizer I might try grabbing a box that'll
do SMPTE to MTC and just slave the DAW to the deck and see if that's
acceptable or not.

rossi

ScotFraser

July 8th 03, 06:47 PM

<< I had an ATS 500 synchronizer for my TSR8 and it worked great. >>

And you still do anytime you want it back. It's not like I'm doing a boatload
of TSR8 work here.

Scott Fraser

Greg W.

July 9th 03, 06:13 PM

> Well, someone just put up one on E-bay, along with an ES-50 and ES-51.
> Starting bid on the MTS-1000 is $99. No reserve. I actually bid on
> the ES-50 so we'll see what happens. I'm not 100% positive it will do
> what I need, but for <$100 I'm willing to find out.

AFAIK, the ES-50 won't do you any good. It is a parallel sync box, and
the TSR-8 is a serial machine. (At least, I don't *think* the TSR will
do parallel. Look on the back and see if there is an "Accessory 1"
jack next to the "Accessory 2" jack. There are both on the MSR-16, but
I don't think on the TSR...) The cable situation will also be a
challenge. You'll have to make your own, as TASCAM hasn't made them
for a while now.

I know for a fact that the ATS-500 will work on the TSR-8, because I
have two, and some cables. (The ATS works great on the MSR-16, too.)

Not to spam, but I am seriously considering selling off some of my
analog gear, and one ATS-500 is on the list. If you're interested, let
me know. My email is grw at theworld dot com (Not that my address
doesn't show up on google, but hey... :-)

-GRW

Greg W.

July 10th 03, 02:12 PM

Well, here I am responding to my own post, correcting an error...

I looked at my TSR-8, and it *does* have Accessory 1. So the ES50/51
should work fine, provided you can make the cable. Try TASCAM tech
support for help on that, they're really good about this sort of
thing. Failing that, maybe someone more in the know than I can help.

Good luck!

-GRW

Chris Rossi

August 9th 03, 08:29 PM

So I now have an ES-50 synchronizer. I'm looking at building the
cable. Even though I have the manuals for both the ES-50 and the
TSR-8 and even though they both contain the pinouts for their
respective interfaces, it's still not obvious to me which pins are
supposed to go to what. I think they're calling the same thing two
different things in each manual and it's making me feel like a
dumbass.

So does anybody actually *know* what the correct wiring is? Maybe
have a diagram or schematic handy?

thanks,
rossi

Chris Rossi

August 14th 03, 03:55 PM

I posted this days ago but it never showed up. Apologies if you've
seen this before.

Anyway, the next day they did fax me the schematic. The only weird
thing is the schematic shows a diode between two pins on the ES-50
interface. Did you do that when you built your cable? It seems odd
to me to have components outside the box. There's probably room
inside the connector but still....

If you want to look at the schematic and then tell me why I'm a
dumbass, it's here:

http://webslingerZ.com/~rossi/39865026.tif

Just in case my previous message was disappeared due to the schematic
posting, Tascam faxed it to me for free at their expense. Wider
distribution would only save them money.

rossi

(Chris Rossi) wrote in message >...
> Do you still have the schematic? I'd pay a few bucks for you to mail
> me a photocopy.
>
> I called Tascam yesterday, started at service, got forwarded to parts,
> who forwarded me to sales, who forwarded me back to service, where I
> got a voicemail to which I left a message that was never returned.
> Anyway, I'll keep trying anyway, but if you had it and could get me a
> copy that would be *sweet*.
>
> thanks,
> rossi
>
>
>
> "reap" > wrote in message >...
> > Call Tascam, I had the same setup and they had the schematic for the cable.
> >
> > Dan
> > "Chris Rossi" > wrote in message
> > om...
> > > So I now have an ES-50 synchronizer. I'm looking at building the
> > > cable. Even though I have the manuals for both the ES-50 and the
> > > TSR-8 and even though they both contain the pinouts for their
> > > respective interfaces, it's still not obvious to me which pins are
> > > supposed to go to what. I think they're calling the same thing two
> > > different things in each manual and it's making me feel like a
> > > dumbass.
> > >
> > > So does anybody actually *know* what the correct wiring is? Maybe
> > > have a diagram or schematic handy?
> > >
> > > thanks,
> > > rossi

Mike Rivers

August 14th 03, 08:59 PM

In article > writes:

> the schematic shows a diode between two pins on the ES-50
> interface. Did you do that when you built your cable? It seems odd
> to me to have components outside the box. There's probably room
> inside the connector but still....

You notice that there are some jumpers in the plug, too. This probably
has to do with making it work with something it wasn't intended to
work with. Diodes are tiny and cheap. Any old diode will do. Just be
sure to observe the polarity.

--
I'm really Mike Rivers - )

Chris Rossi

September 3rd 03, 03:03 AM

(Mike Rivers) wrote in message news:<znr1060881480k@trad>...
> In article > writes:
>
> > the schematic shows a diode between two pins on the ES-50
> > interface. Did you do that when you built your cable? It seems odd
> > to me to have components outside the box. There's probably room
> > inside the connector but still....
>
> You notice that there are some jumpers in the plug, too. This probably
> has to do with making it work with something it wasn't intended to
> work with. Diodes are tiny and cheap. Any old diode will do. Just be
> sure to observe the polarity.
>
Ok. I have built the cable. I have double checked for opens and
shorts about 30 times now. I follow the setup procedure for the
ES-50. (Hook everything up and press the Setup button.) I get Cubase
SX to generate SMPTE via the SMPTE Generator plugin. I record that
onto track 8 of the TSR-8. I have SMPTE from Cubase coming out of an
analog output of the soundcard into the Master TC of the synchronizer,
and SMPTE from the tape deck coming out of track 8 into the Slave TC
of the synchronizer. I start both Cubase and TSR-8 from 0:00, wait a
couple of seconds and hit 'Chase'. TSR-8 goes into rewind until tape
spools off.

Of note, in an earlier attempt at this I had an open in my cable for
the Ext/Int pin. This prevented TSR-8 from being servo controlled by
synchronizer, so obviously I couldn't get a lock. However,
synchronizer was able to FF/RW tape deck, stepping at regular
intervals to see where it was in the TC until it was in the general
ballpark of Cubase. So if I "rewound" Cubase, TSR-8 would see
discontinuity in timecode and back track to more or less the same spot
as Cubase. While chasing without the servo control enabled I could
watch the indicator telling me the tape deck is behind, then the
'lock' indicator comes on, and then the 'ahead' indicator comes on as
the tape deck passes the computer. Telling me that the synchronizer
is indeed comparing and understanding the timecode and can tell when
they match.

So then I fix the cable to enable TSR-8 to allow external servo
control. This is the point that tape deck rewinds as soon as I put it
in chase. Anybody seen this before?

Other strange observations:

- When only Cubase is outputting TC the 24fps light flashes. Even
though plugin and timeline are set to 30fps. When only tape deck is
outputting TC the 30fps light flashes. When both are running both
24fps and 30fps lights flash. This occurs also if through tapedeck
into input monitor so that it is actually just passing the TC directly
from Cubase. Wtf?

- If I start Cubase from 0:00, clock on SMPTE plugin display clock
starts at 12:25:39:00 (hh:mm:ss:frame). If I start Cubase from any
point after 0:00 SMPTE
display clocks is synchronous with Cubase transport clock as one would
expect. Again, wtf?

- I've rerecorded the TSR-8 SMPTE track by clicking on 'Generate' on
the SMPTE generator plugin and recording that signal. I've also tried
recording the signal coming off plugin when in 'link' mode and putting
Cubase in 'Play'. (Should be identical right?) I've tried starting
at 0:00 and at 0:30 in case above 12:25:39:00 weirdness is a problem.
Results are identical in each case. TSR-8 rewinds as soon as "Chase"
is pressed.

- CoolEdit claims to have SMPTE synchronization but it's clear that
they really mean MTC, since you have to use a midi port for it. Why
don't they just say MTC? Their documentation propagates rather than
clears up the confusion between the two.

Anyway, if this sounds like something somebody's seen before and they
remember what the problem was, please let me know.

Thanks for your help,

rossi

Chris Rossi

September 3rd 03, 05:03 AM