need portable front end for Alesis hard disk recorder - or do I?

[WideGlide]

Howdy,

This question is for a friend of mine in the Netherlands...

He has one of those Alesis hard disk recorders, and he wishes to record a
live show by taking 24 individual signals from a FOH console and bring them
into the Alesis. He feels he needs some type of 24 channel pre-amp /
line-in gain control unit. He mentioned he was looking at maybe buying
three Presonus DigiMax units...? I know nothing about these units
specifically. I felt that perhaps he may not even need any "front end" at
all, and that perhaps he could feed the signals straight from the FOH
console into the Alesis directly, that maybe the Alesis has some type of
variable input adjustment... or? If he DOES need a "front end", is there a
good portable unit that could be recommended? This guy would probably
prefer something on the inexpensive side, and is not worried too much about
pristine sonic quality. Any help would be appreciated... this guy is a good
friend, he looks to me for audio advise, I hope to be able to help him out.
It's just that I know very little about what he is trying to do
specifically. Thanks! -wg

[Justin Ulysses Morse]

WideGlide > wrote:

> He has one of those Alesis hard disk recorders, and he wishes to record a
> live show by taking 24 individual signals from a FOH console and bring them
> into the Alesis. He feels he needs some type of 24 channel pre-amp /
> line-in gain control unit. He mentioned he was looking at maybe buying
> three Presonus DigiMax units...? I know nothing about these units
> specifically. I felt that perhaps he may not even need any "front end" at
> all, and that perhaps he could feed the signals straight from the FOH
> console into the Alesis directly, that maybe the Alesis has some type of
> variable input adjustment... or? If he DOES need a "front end", is there a
> good portable unit that could be recommended? This guy would probably
> prefer something on the inexpensive side, and is not worried too much about
> pristine sonic quality. Any help would be appreciated... this guy is a good
> friend, he looks to me for audio advise, I hope to be able to help him out.
> It's just that I know very little about what he is trying to do
> specifically. Thanks! -wg

It sounds to me like your friend is talking about microphones plugged
into the preamps on the FOH console and using some kind of direct
output from each channel to go to the Alesis. If this is the case,
then there's no need for a level control at all, neither on the Alesis
itself nor inline between the console and the recorder. The point of
the FOH console's input trim (gain control) is to bring each signal up
to a nominal line level for use inside the console. Spit this signal
out the direct outputs and it'll be at line level there as well. If
the levels hitting the Alesis are too hot or too quiet, then they're
too hot or too quiet inside the console as well and should be adjusted
at the input gain control. All of the signals can be recorded at
nonimal line level on the Alesis. The time for adjusting those
individual track levels comes later, when he's mixing the recording in
a controlled environment through another mixing console of some kind.
Does that make sense to you?

Of course the possibility exists that somebody other than your friend
is operating the FOH console and that person could be incompetent
and/or have peculiar notions regarding gain structure and might refuse
to cooperate with this recording process. In that case your friend may
find himself looking for some means to correct for inappropriate gain
settings coming out of the FOH console. He would be dealing with poor
gain structuring that will result in excessive noise and/or high
distortion. A situation like that is fundamentally opposed to
producing worthwhile recordings and your friend shouldn't waste his
time.

Long story short, the gain controls your friend seeks are already
located on the console and he needs to access those rather than buy an
outboard box.

ulysses

[Mike Rivers]

In article > writes:

> He has one of those Alesis hard disk recorders, and he wishes to record a
> live show by taking 24 individual signals from a FOH console and bring them
> into the Alesis. He feels he needs some type of 24 channel pre-amp /
> line-in gain control unit.

Why not just take direct outputs from the house console? He won't have
his own gain controls, but it's practically impossible to get enough
level out of a modern console to drive the HD24 to full scale, and at
24-bit resolution, the noise floor is so low that if peaks never get
above -10 dBFS, he'll be just fine.

One thing that he should have is a "back end" though, a simple mixer
so that he can monitor (via the recorder outputs) what's actually
getting to the recorder inputs. It doesn't have to be particularly
high fidelity since he won't be making any critical decisions, but he
needs to verify what's going to each track, and that the meters are
showing real signal and not hum or strange noises.



--
I'm really Mike Rivers - )

[WideGlide]

Guys, thanks for the responses so far. One thing I forgot to mention... my
friend recording from the FOH console is NOT the FOH console engineer. My
friend has no control over what goes on with the FOH console. According to
him, he is taking the direct outs of the FOH into his HD24, whatever levels
should happen to exist... he cannot control it at the console. Thus he
needs some type of "gain-control" between the FOH and his recorder. Thanks

[Peter B.]

"WideGlide" > wrote in message >...
> Guys, thanks for the responses so far. One thing I forgot to mention... my
> friend recording from the FOH console is NOT the FOH console engineer. My
> friend has no control over what goes on with the FOH console. According to
> him, he is taking the direct outs of the FOH into his HD24, whatever levels
> should happen to exist... he cannot control it at the console. Thus he
> needs some type of "gain-control" between the FOH and his recorder. Thanks


Hey WG,
He might want to consider using mic splitters if his budget will allow
it.

Here is some info on splitters:

http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=mic+splitters&btnG=Google+Search&meta=group%3Drec.audio.pro

Take care,
Peter

[Mike Rivers]

In article > writes:

> Guys, thanks for the responses so far. One thing I forgot to mention... my
> friend recording from the FOH console is NOT the FOH console engineer. My
> friend has no control over what goes on with the FOH console.

This is as it should be. The FOH engineer is the one that everyone's
going to stare at if something goes wrong. If he knows what he's
doing, he'll set the console so that it works with the PA system and
the recording is secondary. Live with it.

> he is taking the direct outs of the FOH into his HD24, whatever levels
> should happen to exist... he cannot control it at the console. Thus he
> needs some type of "gain-control" between the FOH and his recorder.

The levels are going to be in the ballpark if the FOH engineer knows
what he's doing. That doesn't mean that he won't have to make
adjustments when he mixes the recording - that's the same thing the
FOH engineer is doing when he mixes for the house, only with the
recording you get the opportunity to try it again if you don't like
the mix. If he's hoping to make a multitrack recording at levels that
he can just sum equally and get a balanced mix, he's dreaming.

Does he have a problem when he's mixing his recording, or is he just
fretting because all the meters aren't hitting full scale all the time
and he thinks he's "losing resolution?" I record live with my Mackie
hard disk recorder and the meters generally read between -20 and -10,
rarely getting close to full scale on anything but an occasional
overly enthusiastic drum hit or an uncontrolled vocal scream (which
usually gets clipped by the console preamps anyway because the FOH
engineer didn't anticipate it). I have no trouble getting a good
mix from those tracks, and even a clipped scream now and then is
acceptable in a live recording, because that's what really happened
(though I'd rather it didn't).

If he really wants to optimize the levels he's recording, the best way
to do that is to split the mic outputs and run through his own
preamps, that that will be very expensive.




--
I'm really Mike Rivers - )

[Wayne]

>In article >
writes:
>
>> Guys, thanks for the responses so far. One thing I forgot to mention... my
>> friend recording from the FOH console is NOT the FOH console engineer. My
>> friend has no control over what goes on with the FOH console.
>
If the FOH has any spare channels you can input the "hot" channels in the FOH
at an acceptable level. Take the direct out into a separate channel, stay off
the house buss, take the direct out of the second channel to your HD24. You're
gonna be getting the FOH's EQ of course. I also have split the 1st direct out
and let the FOH use the second channel. That way I didn't have to wrestle with
any of his settings.

I've also taken a feed off of a spare AUX out on a pre fader. That way the FOH
can do what he wants as long as he doesn't change the input trim.

YMMV
Wayne

[Mike Rivers]

In article > writes:

> Kinda depends on whether or not the Direct outs are pre or post fader.
> Most I've seen are post fader, then every fader move and setting
> affects recording levels.

This may not be a bad thing if the engineer is on the ball, or it
could make for a really hard-to-mix recording if he's always goofing
around and doesn't know how to mix (and when to stop fiddling). If
something's too loud in the house, it's going to be too loud on the
recording, so you might as well turn it down. If it can't be heard in
the house, it'll requre a lot of boost when mixing the recording so
you might as well turn it up.

The only problem is that the house engineer is working in real time so
unless it's a rehearsed thing, the level will be too low or too high
for a while before he makes a change, whereas if the record gain was
constant, when mixing, you would know when a gain change is needed.
Worst case - you'd make the change before the house engineer, then
follow along with his change to get back to normal.

It would be better if the adjustments were made with the console input
trims to keep loud stuff from overloading the front end or keep the
console noise from getting noticable when boosting quiet parts with
the fader, but live recording on the cheap is never going to be ideal.



--
I'm really Mike Rivers - )

[Yuri T.]

> If something's too loud in the house, it's going to be too loud on the
> recording, so you might as well turn it down. If it can't be heard in
> the house, it'll requre a lot of boost when mixing the recording so
> you might as well turn it up.

Yep, that's the facts. I used to work live sound. In most clubs with
an electric band there were often faders that weren't even in the mix
or were down 20 dB. Such as bass or guitars. In that case the noise
floor was a mess on the recorder end out of the direct. The only way
it ever worked for me was to use the inserts and patch the recoder
into the insert chain before any effects. A wiring PITA but doable.
However if you're plugging into someone else's rig then you'll have to
play by their rules or hope they're both willing and able to hook you
up. Another trick is to use subgroups if they're available. Set the
input channel to unity gain and use the channel direct out to the
recorder, buss it to a sub and use the sub fader for the house mix.