What Digital I/O would YOU choose for RADAR - PC - 02R

[Martin Quinn]

I'm stuck with a little problem I ran into after getting our RADAR in. We're
using it in conjunction with a Yamaha 02R mixer that came loaded with ADAT
cards. Luckily we decided to postpone getting a RADAR digital board because
I later found out that the 02R ADAT cards only come at 20 bits. I've gone to
a company in Germany that made a modified card but their too expensive at
?495 each.

The AES/EBU card for RADAR is also a lot more expensive than the other 2
options.

My last option I suppose is TDIF. I'm reluctant because not only is there no
other Tascam equipment in the studio, but a lot of my other equipment has
only ADAT connections. I also want to be able to Interface the studio PC
with the RADAR and 02R and am not sure of the options for TDIF interfacing
for PC/MAC.

What are user experiences with TDIF between RADAR, a digital desk and a DAW
(preferably PC as its my weapon of choice :-)) I guess an advantage of ADAT
is that the clocking signal is carried so you don't need to run an extra
clocking cable. Does anyone use a digital patchbay / format converer that
could translate between TDIF to ADAT at 24bits if I was to go with ADAT
boards in the RADAR and PC and put a TDIF in the 02R.

Sorry for the inconciseness. Wanted to explain the situation thoroughly.

regards

Martin

[John L Rice]

I may be wrong ( others here please verify / deny ) but I think you don't
have to worry about the bit rate so much. If a 20 bit interface is receiving
a 24 bit signal it just ignores the bottom 4 bits and if a 24 bit interface
is receiving a 20 bit data stream it just accepts it.

If that isn't correct or you are not comfortable with it you could pick up a
used MOTU 2408 ( original version ) expander since they can work in stand
alone mode and convert 24 channels of ADAT<>TDIF at a time. You could of
course buy the current MkIII version for around $900 to $1000. You don't
need the PCI card and you don't need the software or AudioWire cable and
don't need a computer, just the rackmount interface. The original version
only had 20 bit analog I/O on bank A but the digital I/O was 24 bit.

Check Ebay etc. You should be able to get one for $100 to $300.

Best of luck!

John L Rice


"Martin Quinn" > wrote in message
...
> I'm stuck with a little problem I ran into after getting our RADAR in.
We're
> using it in conjunction with a Yamaha 02R mixer that came loaded with ADAT
> cards. Luckily we decided to postpone getting a RADAR digital board
because
> I later found out that the 02R ADAT cards only come at 20 bits. I've gone
to
> a company in Germany that made a modified card but their too expensive at
> ?495 each.
>
> The AES/EBU card for RADAR is also a lot more expensive than the other 2
> options.
>
> My last option I suppose is TDIF. I'm reluctant because not only is there
no
> other Tascam equipment in the studio, but a lot of my other equipment has
> only ADAT connections. I also want to be able to Interface the studio PC
> with the RADAR and 02R and am not sure of the options for TDIF interfacing
> for PC/MAC.
>
> What are user experiences with TDIF between RADAR, a digital desk and a
DAW
> (preferably PC as its my weapon of choice :-)) I guess an advantage of
ADAT
> is that the clocking signal is carried so you don't need to run an extra
> clocking cable. Does anyone use a digital patchbay / format converer that
> could translate between TDIF to ADAT at 24bits if I was to go with ADAT
> boards in the RADAR and PC and put a TDIF in the 02R.
>
> Sorry for the inconciseness. Wanted to explain the situation thoroughly.
>
> regards
>
> Martin
>
>

[Vernon Boyce]

John L Rice ) wrote:
: I may be wrong ( others here please verify / deny ) but I think you don't
: have to worry about the bit rate so much. If a 20 bit interface is receiving
: a 24 bit signal it just ignores the bottom 4 bits and if a 24 bit interface
: is receiving a 20 bit data stream it just accepts it.

Truncation of 24 to 20 bits of a single track of a multitrack recording is
arguably no big deal. The resolution of the track may not even be 24 bits
in any case depending on how it was recorded or processed. I'll admit I am
unable to hear the difference between the two. I'm sure others can though.

Truncation of a 2 channel master from 24 to 20 might be a bit more
problematic, but still not sure I would really sweat it, given that most
music levels are in the top bits anyway. (Unless you're dealing with
material like Scott Dorsey's RAP 5 cut!).

: If that isn't correct or you are not comfortable with it you could pick up a
: used MOTU 2408 ( original version ) expander since they can work in stand
: alone mode and convert 24 channels of ADAT<>TDIF at a time. You could of
[ ... snip ... ]

I have 2 2408 (II) units and their TDIF in implemention does not work.
Myabe this is not a problem with the Mk I or II versions, but I could not
even get the one unit to route TDIF out to TDIF in without unusable
distorted signal. MOTU were no help and I know of others with the same
problem.

I'm also not sure about the transparency of the O2R TDIF cards. When I
send a 24 bit signal through the O2R, it appears to be chopping off the
*most* significant 8 bits. I have tried all sorts of different DIP switch
settings to no avail. However (I have not tested in isolation) this could
be a problem with the 2408 to which it is connected. I'm actually still
working on trying to get this to work properly. In the meantime I am
using them in 16 bit mode or use the ADAT card and suffer the 20 bit
truncation.

In answer to Martin's original question, a TDIF connection may work, but
I'm not entirely convinced about the Yamaha CD8 cards.

As for clock signal. I would suggest you always use dedicated wordclock and
not rely on the ADAT to supply the clock signal. I have found that in some
cases I get clocking problems, maybe due to delay in passing on clock in
the ADAT stream.

Also beware of the German modded cards, I heard from someone else who bought
them that they had to send them back as they were not stable.

Here is another option:

Thomann is blowing out TC Unity cards with 24 bit ADAT I/O for EUR260 ex
VAT (or something like that). You get some TC verbs (or finalizer if you
are that way inclined) to boot. Not sure if they have many (any) left, so
if this was of interest you would need to act quickly.

I have ordered one because I would like a couple of 24 bit channels into
my O2R (other than the AES 2 track in). When I get it, I'll report back on
how 24 bit clean this card is and how the TDIF vs ADAT issue compares.

Martin, given you are in Ireland (Cavan from your nntp posting IP
address), I'd be happy for you to borrow one of my TDIF cards if you
wanted to try it out. Just drop me an email and let me know.

Regards,
Vernon.

--
Vernon Boyce, Soft Audio, , http://live.softaudio.com
Live recording of acoustic music in Dublin, Ireland

[Mike Rivers]

In article > writes:

> I'm stuck with a little problem I ran into after getting our RADAR in. We're
> using it in conjunction with a Yamaha 02R mixer that came loaded with ADAT
> cards. Luckily we decided to postpone getting a RADAR digital board because
> I later found out that the 02R ADAT cards only come at 20 bits.

Plan ahead, I always say. I guess that's one of the reasons they came
up with a new model 02R.

> The AES/EBU card for RADAR is also a lot more expensive than the other 2
> options.

> My last option I suppose is TDIF.
> What are user experiences with TDIF between RADAR, a digital desk and a DAW
> (preferably PC as its my weapon of choice :-))

There's nothing wrong with TDIF as long as you can find it, and as
long as it's implemented correctly. That's a bit of a problem because
TASCAM's documentation has been inconsistent and there have been some
funky TDIFs around. I'd trust iZ to do it right, and Yamaha has
probably been doing it long enough to get it right, but I don't know
what you'll find in a computer interface that you can trust. (not that
I know there are some that you shouldn't trust, I just suspect it)

One problem you might run into with TDIF if you're going to be moving
it from one destination to another is with patching. A TDIF patchbay
is kind of a rare bird, but there are plenty of Lightpipe patchbays
that work pretty well.

Backing up slightly, you might have a similar patching problem with
AES/EBU also, unless you break out the 25-pin D-sub connectors to XLRs
and use standard patching hardware. The pinout for Yamaha's AES/EBU
DB-25 is different from RADAR's, and different from Mackie's, and
different from Otari's.

> I guess an advantage of ADAT
> is that the clocking signal is carried so you don't need to run an extra
> clocking cable.

I wouldn't count on that, particularly if you want to get the lowest
jitter out of your system. Word clock is only one BNC cable, and the
console and recorder both have work clock in and out. Chances are
you'll be wanting to get a master word clock source soon and run
everything from it anyway.

Here's my suggestion - go with the ADAT cards in the Yamaha. You're
going to be limited by the 02R's A/D converters anyway until you
replace them with outboards, so you might as well save your money now.
If you want to get the most out of the RADAR, you should probably
start saving your pennies for a more modern console. And I'll bet
it'll sound pretty darn good in the mean time.



--
I'm really Mike Rivers - )

[Vernon Boyce]

Vernon Boyce ) wrote:
: Thomann is blowing out TC Unity cards with 24 bit ADAT I/O for EUR260 ex
[ ... snip ... ]
:
: I have ordered one because I would like a couple of 24 bit channels into
: my O2R (other than the AES 2 track in). When I get it, I'll report back on
: how 24 bit clean this card is and how the TDIF vs ADAT issue compares.

If anyone is interested, the TDIF implementation on these cards seems to
have clocking problems (at least with my setup), but the 24 bit lightpipe
interface works just fine and indeed passes 24 bits cleanly (bar summing
issues in the O2R itself, that is).

Regards,
Vernon.

--
Vernon Boyce, Soft Audio, , http://live.softaudio.com
Live recording of acoustic music in Dublin, Ireland

[Steve Holt]

"Mike Rivers" > wrote in message
news:znr1057023353k@trad...
>
> In article >
writes:
>
> > I'm stuck with a little problem I ran into after getting our RADAR in.
We're
> > using it in conjunction with a Yamaha 02R mixer that came loaded with
ADAT
> > cards. Luckily we decided to postpone getting a RADAR digital board
because
> > I later found out that the 02R ADAT cards only come at 20 bits.
>
> Plan ahead, I always say. I guess that's one of the reasons they came
> up with a new model 02R.
>
> > The AES/EBU card for RADAR is also a lot more expensive than the other 2
> > options.
>
> > My last option I suppose is TDIF.
> > What are user experiences with TDIF between RADAR, a digital desk and a
DAW
> > (preferably PC as its my weapon of choice :-))
>
> There's nothing wrong with TDIF as long as you can find it, and as
> long as it's implemented correctly. That's a bit of a problem because
> TASCAM's documentation has been inconsistent and there have been some
> funky TDIFs around. I'd trust iZ to do it right, and Yamaha has
> probably been doing it long enough to get it right, but I don't know
> what you'll find in a computer interface that you can trust. (not that
> I know there are some that you shouldn't trust, I just suspect it)
>
> One problem you might run into with TDIF if you're going to be moving
> it from one destination to another is with patching. A TDIF patchbay
> is kind of a rare bird, but there are plenty of Lightpipe patchbays
> that work pretty well.

A rare bird? I didn't know it existed. Where might one find this bird?

Steve Holt
INNER MUSIC
Music Creation & Production
http://www.inner-music.com
http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/steveholt

[Steve O'Neill]

Is the Mark of the Unicorn model 2408mk3 what you're looking for?

Steve Holt wrote:

> "Mike Rivers" > wrote in message
> news:znr1057023353k@trad...
>
>>In article >
>
> writes:
>
>>>I'm stuck with a little problem I ran into after getting our RADAR in.
>
> We're
>
>>>using it in conjunction with a Yamaha 02R mixer that came loaded with
>
> ADAT
>
>>>cards. Luckily we decided to postpone getting a RADAR digital board
>
> because
>
>>>I later found out that the 02R ADAT cards only come at 20 bits.
>>
>>Plan ahead, I always say. I guess that's one of the reasons they came
>>up with a new model 02R.
>>
>>
>>>The AES/EBU card for RADAR is also a lot more expensive than the other 2
>>>options.
>>
>>>My last option I suppose is TDIF.
>>>What are user experiences with TDIF between RADAR, a digital desk and a
>
> DAW
>
>>>(preferably PC as its my weapon of choice :-))
>>
>>There's nothing wrong with TDIF as long as you can find it, and as
>>long as it's implemented correctly. That's a bit of a problem because
>>TASCAM's documentation has been inconsistent and there have been some
>>funky TDIFs around. I'd trust iZ to do it right, and Yamaha has
>>probably been doing it long enough to get it right, but I don't know
>>what you'll find in a computer interface that you can trust. (not that
>>I know there are some that you shouldn't trust, I just suspect it)
>>
>>One problem you might run into with TDIF if you're going to be moving
>>it from one destination to another is with patching. A TDIF patchbay
>>is kind of a rare bird, but there are plenty of Lightpipe patchbays
>>that work pretty well.
>
>
> A rare bird? I didn't know it existed. Where might one find this bird?
>
> Steve Holt
> INNER MUSIC
> Music Creation & Production
> http://www.inner-music.com
> http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/steveholt
>
>
>

[Steve Holt]

"Mike Rivers" > wrote in message
news:znr1060081546k@trad...
>
> In article >
writes:
>
> > > A TDIF patchbay is kind of a rare bird
>
> > A rare bird? I didn't know it existed. Where might one find this bird?
>
> I'm sure that Z-Systems can fix you up. TASCAM used to have an
> AES/EBU-TDIF breakout box, but it's been out of the catalog for a few
> years now. There are a couple of tricks when patching multi-channel
> interfaces. The first one is that everyone wants to be able to
> re-route channels within a group (Input 1 Channel 3 to Output 4
> Channel 8) and in order to do that, you need to take the multi-channel
> input apart, patch the pieces, and re-assemble it at the output. This
> shouldn't be too difficult with TDIF since it's actually a multi-wire
> interface, but you have to re-clock everything to assure that you
> maintain phase coherence of the channels. It's not too hard to do with
> today's input-reclocking chips, but TDIF isn't popular enough to get
> the price down to the point where you'd see the benefit of an
> inexpensive chip on a commercial product.
>
> Have you considered a rack of DB-25 connectors and some short patch
> cables?
>

Actually, I spoke with Z-Systems some time ago and they couldn't help me.
Basically I wanted to be able to patch my Rosetta into the inputs of my 3
DA-88s without crawling around in the back of Spagettivlle (not to be
confused with Margueritaville...).

I'm really not a technical fellow. e.g. If I need to hang up a picture on
the wall, I call somebody up. I'd just like to buy a TDIF patch bay.
What's the story on the DB-25 connectors?

--
Steve Holt
INNER MUSIC
Music Creation & Production
http://www.inner-music.com
http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/steveholt

[Graham Hinton]

In article >,
"Steve Holt" > wrote:

>"Steve O'Neill" > wrote in message
...
>> Is the Mark of the Unicorn model 2408mk3 what you're looking for?
>
>
>Sure, but that's a bit more than a patch bay, and the price would bear that
>out.

If it only costs money it is cheap.

Wiring up even a passive DB25 based patchbay will cost more once you add in
the labour and custom metalwork charges.

With digital audio though you normally require some form of master clock
routing and selection as well, so it is not as simple as it looks. That is
before you start considering future sample rates and interfacing different
SR devices.

I build custom AES/EBU and TDIF routing systems, but if you can't afford
the MotU you can't afford me.