Studio recording in a church sanctuary and dealing with ambiance

[Ludwig77]

I have access to a church sanctuary and am considering recording drums
there.

Its the only place that I have access to the space and a kit without
having to pay someone else.

The sanctuary, like most, has too much ambiance for studio recordings
(unless we're going for the Bonham sound and even then, it probably
has too much).

The church does have a drum shield around the kit so I was wondering
if I'd be able to kill the ambiance by hanging sheets on the shield.
The shield is in front of the drums. The back of the kit faces the
wall so I think I'm covered behind the kit.

Other ideas to kill the ambiance?

I'd be using 2 condensor mics, and close mics on the kick, snare and
one on toms.

Greg

[Chris Whealy]

Ludwig77 wrote:
> I have access to a church sanctuary and am considering recording drums there.
> Its the only place that I have access to the space and a kit without having to pay someone else.
>
I would imagine that the only other reason for recording drums in such
an environment is because you *do* want to record the ambiance.
> The sanctuary, like most, has too much ambiance for studio recordings (unless we're going for the Bonham sound and even then, it probably
> has too much).
>
I've been round this loop and there is basically no way to avoid hearing
the ambiance of the room without either:
o Treating the room (not an option really)
o Making your recording somewhere else (open you cheque book and
repeat after me...)
o Completely enclosing the drums
> The church does have a drum shield around the kit so I was wondering if I'd be able to kill the ambiance by hanging sheets on the shield.
>
The drum shield only reduces the level of direct drum sound to other
people in the vicinity of the kit, and hanging sheets will do little
more than make it look like a washing line.
> The shield is in front of the drums. The back of the kit faces the wall so I think I'm covered behind the kit.
>
No, you'll get a strong bounce off the wall and straight out of the top
of the enclosure into the room.
> Other ideas to kill the ambiance?
>
The only way to avoid hearing the room is to put a lid on the drum
enclosure and then have the kit hard up against the wall with no gaps
around the edges.
> I'd be using 2 condensor mics, and close mics on the kick, snare and one on toms.
>
By enclosing the drums, you'll get a pretty boxy sound though from the
overheads, but you will remove most of the room ambient. So given your
options, you'll have to choose between an ambient sound or a boxy,
enclosed sound.

Chris W

--
The voice of ignorance speaks loud and long,
But the words of the wise are quiet and few.
---

[Scott Dorsey]

Ludwig77 > wrote:
>
>Other ideas to kill the ambiance?
>
>I'd be using 2 condensor mics, and close mics on the kick, snare and
>one on toms.

I think you'll find when you bring the spot mikes up the ambience goes
away anyway. But careful placement of the overheads can do a lot for you.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Ludwig77]

On Mar 14, 9:29 am, (Scott Dorsey) wrote:
> Ludwig77 > wrote:
>
> >Other ideas to kill the ambiance?
>
> >I'd be using 2 condensor mics, and close mics on the kick, snare and
> >one on toms.
>
> I think you'll find when you bring the spot mikes up the ambience goes
> away anyway. But careful placement of the overheads can do a lot for you.
> --scott
> --
> "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

What if we placed the overhead mics as close as we could to the
cymbols so as to capture their sound without trying to capture the
rest of the kit. We'd rely on the close mics for capturing the kit.

If we did such a thing, would dynamic mics be better for the overheads
because of the proximity, or would we lose the trebles that condensors
are better at capturing?

[Scott Dorsey]

Ludwig77 > wrote:
>On Mar 14, 9:29 am, (Scott Dorsey) wrote:
>> Ludwig77 > wrote:
>>
>> >Other ideas to kill the ambiance?
>>
>> >I'd be using 2 condensor mics, and close mics on the kick, snare and
>> >one on toms.
>>
>> I think you'll find when you bring the spot mikes up the ambience goes
>> away anyway. But careful placement of the overheads can do a lot for you.
>
>What if we placed the overhead mics as close as we could to the
>cymbols so as to capture their sound without trying to capture the
>rest of the kit. We'd rely on the close mics for capturing the kit.

I think you'll get less ambience than you think, even if you pull them back
a bit. I think you are chasing a problem that doesn't really exist.

>If we did such a thing, would dynamic mics be better for the overheads
>because of the proximity, or would we lose the trebles that condensors
>are better at capturing?

You don't want dynamic mikes for overheads, unless they are dynamic mikes
with very good top end detail like 441s or something.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[jtougas[_2_]]

On Mar 14, 7:28 am, "Ludwig77" > wrote:

> Other ideas to kill the ambiance?

Muffle pads behind the overheads?

4 12' poles with a king size comforter canopied between them?

Other'n that, I can't think of anything that wouldn't require
scaffolding...

> I'd be using 2 condensor mics, and close mics on the kick, snare and
> one on toms.

Are the overheads omni, or cardioid?

- jtougas

[Edi Zubovic]

On 15 Mar 2007 07:38:21 -0700, "jtougas" >
wrote:

>On Mar 14, 7:28 am, "Ludwig77" > wrote:
>
>> Other ideas to kill the ambiance?
>
>Muffle pads behind the overheads?
>
>4 12' poles with a king size comforter canopied between them?
>
>Other'n that, I can't think of anything that wouldn't require
>scaffolding...
>
>> I'd be using 2 condensor mics, and close mics on the kick, snare and
>> one on toms.
>
>Are the overheads omni, or cardioid?
>
>- jtougas

-- Has anybody tried this shade, in such a situation:

http://www.seelectronics.com/rf.html

--I understand that while it could not be an all-problem solver, it
could indeed be of help. It actually may tame sound coming from back
and make a better direct-to-indirect sound ratio.

Edi Zubovic, Crikvenica, Croatia

[Ethan Winer]

> -- Has anybody tried this shade, in such a situation:
> http://www.seelectronics.com/rf.html

My company's Portable Vocal Booth is much better, mostly because it's much
larger and much more absorbent:

http://www.realtraps.com/p_pvb.htm

--Ethan

[Edi Zubovic]

On Fri, 16 Mar 2007 15:48:28 -0400, "Ethan Winer" <ethanw at
ethanwiner dot com> wrote:

>> -- Has anybody tried this shade, in such a situation:
>> http://www.seelectronics.com/rf.html
>
>My company's Portable Vocal Booth is much better, mostly because it's much
>larger and much more absorbent:
>
>http://www.realtraps.com/p_pvb.htm
>
>--Ethan

--Thanks for the info, Ethan. While the sE is available here, it's
nice to see some information and graphs about such a system (I'm not
going into which is the better but I think both of them can help to a
degree).

Edi Zubovic, Crikvenica, Croatia

[David Morgan \(MAMS\)]

"Ludwig77" > wrote in message ups.com...
> I have access to a church sanctuary and am considering recording drums
> there.
>
> Its the only place that I have access to the space and a kit without
> having to pay someone else.
>
> The sanctuary, like most, has too much ambiance for studio recordings
> (unless we're going for the Bonham sound and even then, it probably
> has too much).
>
> The church does have a drum shield around the kit so I was wondering
> if I'd be able to kill the ambiance by hanging sheets on the shield.
> The shield is in front of the drums. The back of the kit faces the
> wall so I think I'm covered behind the kit.
>
> Other ideas to kill the ambiance?
>
> I'd be using 2 condensor mics, and close mics on the kick, snare and
> one on toms.
>
> Greg


I don't see where the room is going to play that big of a roll. I think you're
worried before you need to be.... apparently you'll have plenty of time to
experiment.

You're close miking, so the problem should be *almost* non-existant.
I record every Sunday in the same proximity to what you describe... drums
shielded on 3 sides, back to wall... but your room size may be a great deal
larger than mine. However, with close miking, it shouldn't matter much.

Take a listen to some of the audio files from last weeks service. They are
bass heavy, 128k MP3s (mixed for computer speakers -- there's always a
little too much kick and electric bass, which I filter on the CD versions).
These samples are of a trio -piano, bass, drums- recorded live, using 5
mics on the drum kit. K, Sn, Rack, Flr, OH... all SM-57s except the kick,
which is a D-112. I don't use anything fancy as an overhead to avoid having
it be full of electric bass, which sets a couple of feet from the kit. What you're
hearing is a clone of the PA mix for the sanctuary system. You will find that
the cymbals (unless they're tin cans) will be plenty present, even without an
overhead.

http://www.cathedraloflight.org/services.html#topics



--
David Morgan (MAMS)
http://www.m-a-m-s DOT com
Morgan Audio Media Service
Dallas, Texas (214) 662-9901
_______________________________________
http://www.artisan-recordingstudio.com

[Romeo Rondeau]

David Morgan (MAMS) wrote:
> "Ludwig77" > wrote in message ups.com...
>> I have access to a church sanctuary and am considering recording drums
>> there.
>>
>> Its the only place that I have access to the space and a kit without
>> having to pay someone else.
>>
>> The sanctuary, like most, has too much ambiance for studio recordings
>> (unless we're going for the Bonham sound and even then, it probably
>> has too much).
>>
>> The church does have a drum shield around the kit so I was wondering
>> if I'd be able to kill the ambiance by hanging sheets on the shield.
>> The shield is in front of the drums. The back of the kit faces the
>> wall so I think I'm covered behind the kit.
>>
>> Other ideas to kill the ambiance?
>>
>> I'd be using 2 condensor mics, and close mics on the kick, snare and
>> one on toms.
>>
>> Greg
>
>
> I don't see where the room is going to play that big of a roll. I think you're
> worried before you need to be.... apparently you'll have plenty of time to
> experiment.
>
> You're close miking, so the problem should be *almost* non-existant.
> I record every Sunday in the same proximity to what you describe... drums
> shielded on 3 sides, back to wall... but your room size may be a great deal
> larger than mine. However, with close miking, it shouldn't matter much.
>
> Take a listen to some of the audio files from last weeks service. They are
> bass heavy, 128k MP3s (mixed for computer speakers -- there's always a
> little too much kick and electric bass, which I filter on the CD versions).
> These samples are of a trio -piano, bass, drums- recorded live, using 5
> mics on the drum kit. K, Sn, Rack, Flr, OH... all SM-57s except the kick,
> which is a D-112. I don't use anything fancy as an overhead to avoid having
> it be full of electric bass, which sets a couple of feet from the kit. What you're
> hearing is a clone of the PA mix for the sanctuary system. You will find that
> the cymbals (unless they're tin cans) will be plenty present, even without an
> overhead.
>
> http://www.cathedraloflight.org/services.html#topics

Sounds great, Dave. I would like to hear a little more definition in the
bass, instead of all that woof. It's not that there is too much bass,
just too much bass frequencies. Are you taking a DI before his amp or
after? If you're taking it before his amp, superglue the tone controls
on his bass in the center-detent position :-) Also, they need a guitar
player :-)