Re: Newbie question: system upgrade

[Ted Van Norman]

>> > I am fairly dissatified with my music system right now. While in
>> > college, I put an DVD home theater system together ad-hoc, over time,
>> > and I've come to the realization that it just doesn't sound right when
>> > I listen to music (can you say "living in denial"?). I guess that the
>> > DVD sound of things blowing up and the overwhelming bass covered up
>> > the musical flaws. Here's what the system consists of:

>> > Perhaps I should think about throwing all of the above (except for the
>> > playstation) in the trash and start over. I am not looking to spend a
>> > bundle, probably $2,000 to $2,500. I just want a decent system that
>> > plays *music* that's nice to the ear. So I did some research
>> > tonight...

You are a good candidate for a good ol' old fashioned two channel
audiophile stereo system. They play music. I assume your existing
system is multi-channel which are good for sound effects and movies.

Keep multi-channel system for movies.

Start anew with 2 channel hi-end stereo components for music. Choose
carefully with the idea that you will be constantly upgrading
individual components as your budget allows in the future. I am
reading between the lines of your post but think I am correct in
saying that you are most interested in the best quality playback of
recorded music. That means two channel to a lot of us. Who the heck
can watch that much of TV and Hollywood anyway. You will find that
the better your music playback system gets, the less video you will
watch. I watch the local and National news, that about does it. The
rest of the time it's recorded music.

Connect with a reputable hi-end dealer who will let you bring
components home to audition in YOUR living / listening space before
you make the commitment to buy. If you are lucky, your reputable
hi-end dealer will have used trade-ins of quality components that his
customers have sold back to him as they upgrade. If you are doubly
lucky, your dealer will have lots of doctor / lawyer / professional
type audiophiles with money to burn and constant upgrade fever. The
odds are good that you will find well kept excellent sounding pieces
less the depreciation of buying new. Audiophiles are an anal lot for
the most part and take good care of their equipment. I have had very
good service out of used ARC tube equipment.

Forget the hype and marketing of the audio industry. Recorded sound
does not make giant leaps every year with the introduction of each new
piece of technical wizardery. But they want you to believe that in
order to sell more boxes of course. Hi end components from 10 years
ago can and do sound better than much of the audio industry's
outpourings of 2003. Try out a well maintained 10 year old tube ARC
pre / amplifier and decent turntable / cartridge. The giant strides
of recorded sound claimed by the audio industry (especially the mass
marketers) are dubious at best and more like the tiny inching forward
if at all when you start buying truly high quality stereo equipment.
Don't turn up your nose at that 6 year old Wadia transport. It may
just have better sound than 98% of the 2003 transport offerings. And
the 2% of the year 2003 transport offerings that do sound better will
probably cost more than most peoples cars.

And in case you haven't got my message, GET a great used tube amp and
a top of the line turntable / cartridge (used is fine set up by a
knowledgeable dealer,) That should stir this place up.

Regards,
Ted

[Steven Sullivan]

Colin > wrote:
> Steven Sullivan > wrote in message news:<jMIKa.25579$Fy6.7557@sccrnsc03>...
>> Koopas Ly > wrote:
>> > Hi everyone,
>>
>> > I am fairly dissatified with my music system right now. While in
>> > college, I put an DVD home theater system together ad-hoc, over time,
>> > and I've come to the realization that it just doesn't sound right when
>> > I listen to music (can you say "living in denial"?). I guess that the
>> > DVD sound of things blowing up and the overwhelming bass covered up
>> > the musical flaws. Here's what the system consists of:
>>
>> > -Harman Kardon AVR-35 receiver

> I don't have a HK reciever, but I do own a HK power amp. What's wrong
> with HK products? Just currious. Mine is the PA-5800 five channel
> power amp. Are some of there products good and others not?

> thanks.

> BTW: if your looking for a nice DVD player that will do the DVD Audio
> format, I just purchased the Panasonic RP-91. Very good sound!! I've
> heard that panasonic is discontinuing them, so you might get a good
> deal. I paid $650 Canadian for mine.

I've just been having an exchange of posts elsewhere with someone who owns
an RP-91. He reported that the player does not seem to be able to access
the DVD-V layer of DVD-A discs. Its default is to read DVD-As as DVD-A
and there's no way to change the default, even by using the 'group' button
to try to shuttle through the groups. I'd never heard of a DVD-A player
that was this badly designed and said so. But incredibly, this appears to
be the case, from research I've done into other posts by other owners.
None seems to have been able to find a way to access the DVD-V tracks.

If anyone *has* figured out a way to access the DVD-V stuff on DVD-A discs
using the RP-91, please let me know...I'll be happy to convey that
information to RP-91 owners on other forums.

A better choice, IMO, for a DVD-a player would be either the Pioneer
DV-45a. the Denon 2900, both of which also do SACD.

--
-S.

[Joseph Oberlander]

Steven Sullivan wrote:
> Colin > wrote:
>
>>In a previous post I asked about the Harmon kardon products, see
>>above. Are they not as good as other comparable priced recievers??
>
>
> No, they're fully as good as comparably prices receivers.

Denon, Onkyo, HK, and Sony all make roughly simmilar quality
amplifiers, so get the one with the best features and price.

[Steven Sullivan]

Joseph Oberlander > wrote:
> Steven Sullivan wrote:
>> Colin > wrote:
>>
>>>In a previous post I asked about the Harmon kardon products, see
>>>above. Are they not as good as other comparable priced recievers??
>>
>>
>> No, they're fully as good as comparably prices receivers.

> Denon, Onkyo, HK, and Sony all make roughly simmilar quality
> amplifiers, so get the one with the best features and price.

The tipping factor for me was that the HK HT receiver I bought (the AVR
520) had HDCD decoding...which I predict will soon be impossible to find
on home electronics, if it isn't already. Turned out it also had much
better input confugurability* than my older (and significantly less
expensive) Yamaha HT 5540, as well as more power, but that's all gravy.

--
-S.

*But curiously, its DPL II implementation is *less* configurable than
the Yammy's, darnit.

[Slats]

>Would you EVER buy speakers without listening to them, purely based on
>say, reviews? The thing is that the limited local audio stores on the
>island may not carry a full line of varied speaker makes and models.
>And I don't want to be limited to the present selection.

yes.... I saw a great review on the Pinnacle PN5+ (now replaced by
the AC650) and saw a blowout sale and I bought 'em. The best thing I
ever did beyond buying my Magnepan's. I also bought the NHT Super
Zero cold...they are good but I would prefer the Super One I think.

But for a den....it will be hard to beat a Pinnacle ac650..look at the
low end response stats when you compare den boxes.....

Look for a pair of used Magnepan's on the island but beware of their
tweeters and that you will likely have to repair them with factory
replacement parts...............

I have a NAD 302 integrated in my den....it is lovely...but so are
some old Luxman integrated and receivers....

Luxman R105 R115 R361 if not abused and L105u too

[Slats]

man...you all have not been on a budget.

You can be more specific for this kinda person:

If you must go 2 channel

Hit Ebay or a trusted tech....and get the newest , used Luxman, NAD,
Yamaha , maybe Acurus or Bryston etc ....35-75w Integrated..with lots
of headroom or one that can dump amps..(Even a restored HarmonKardon
if you can find one) .maybe $200-400.and the speakers of your
choice....from $250 to $1200 and fill in your buget from there...

If you have the space, audition some old Magnepan MGIII or
equivalent...

and then for boxes...first the little Pinnacle AC650 box...then the
B&W, Spendor, Boston Acoustic, NHT boxes

I contend 3 channels across the front are best but most great sound
is engineered for 2 and I am lost for a good cheap
decoder....probably Lexicon is the only choice and they can be
pricey. But you then need some space unless you use three NHT Super
One's or equivalent (or Pinnacle AC650 if you do not play loud) in
front ...with a Velodyne Subwoofer or equivalent.

Good luck and good listening.....don't play it too loud 'cause when
you get to be about 50 you will lose too much of your hearing if you
have abused your young ears......

On 25 Jun 2003 23:24:48 GMT, Joseph Oberlander
> wrote:

>Koopas Ly wrote:
>> Hi everyone,
>
>Hi. :)
>
>> I am fairly dissatified with my music system right now. While in
>> college, I put an DVD home theater system together ad-hoc, over time,
>> and I've come to the realization that it just doesn't sound right when
>> I listen to music (can you say "living in denial"?). I guess that the
>> DVD sound of things blowing up and the overwhelming bass covered up
>> the musical flaws. Here's what the system consists of:
>
>Okay - I actually do installs and consulting for computer and
>home theatre systems, so I can offer a bit of advice.
>
>There are a couple of audio groups on USENET that offer good
>advice:
>rec.audio.high-end(moderated - likely your best bet)
>rec.audio.opinion(high traffic, flame-war country, but if you weed
> all of that out, good advice overall)
>
>Several other online sights as well, though stay away from anything
>commercial as they will NOT tell you what really is good and what
>more importantly stinks for fear of loosing advertizing money.
>
>One of my favorite iis http://www.cheaphometheater.com/
>Nice reviews and all built towards a good setup without a lot
>of hasstle or money.
>
>*note* - their reviews of speakers are well below the standard
>you could get with your budget, so listen to models a line or
>two up in most cases. 5.1 "system in a box" are definately out.
>You want 5 speakers and a seperate subwoofer.
>
>You also want to go to www.asus.com and look at their accessories.
>They make a 5.1 digital(coax) out jack for their motherboards. This
>turns your P.C. into true surround sound - just plug it in like
>a DVD player. Well worth the $30-$40 they charge(IIRC - it may be
>less) The 5.1 onboard sound has outs that you could hook into
>a P.C. type setup, but um - WHY? All of the new ASUS boards have
>a pinout for this connector.
>
>Anyways - back to the audio system:
>
>> -Harman Kardon AVR-35 receiver
>
>Replace with A low-end Denon, HK, NAD, or Outlaw Audio.
>Outlaw Audio, IMO, makes a very good amplifier for about $200
>less than a comparable major-brand name. Solid and good 5.1
>sound. They sell direct, so most people haven't heard of them
>yet. Cheap Home Theatre gives them a good review, BTW.
>
>> -Sony CDP-XE500
>> -Bose (ok, no laughs)
>>
>> ...and my playstation 2 as the dvd player.
>>
>> Perhaps I should think about throwing all of the above (except for the
>> playstation) in the trash and start over. I am not looking to spend a
>> bundle, probably $2,000 to $2,500. I just want a decent system that
>> plays *music* that's nice to the ear. So I did some research
>> tonight...
>
>Okay - quick budget:
>$600 amplifier. Solid-state A/V amp. An Outlaw Audio 1050 or
> Denon 2803 would be a great choice, IMO.
>$300 DVD player(doubles as a CD player) Sony makes a nice
> progressive scan model. Far superior the the PS2. MOst
> will also do HDCD and SACD/DVD-Audio(one or both of these)
> due to the 24/96 decoder chips built in.
>
>Sell old system (+400-500 or so) Important as this basically
> pays for most of the new amplifier.
>
>So that leaves you with about $1600-2100 of your original budget.
>
>Very do-able.
>
>Common advice years ago was 50% amp - 50% speakers. That was for
>2 channel, so for 5.1(6 speakers, really), you need to adjust that
>to 75% speakers, 25% amp. With $600 for an amp, that means ~1800
>for speakers.
>
>$500 of that is the subwoofer, btw, so that really means ~1200
>for speakers plus ~100 for wires and wall mounting brackets.
>
>> I was reading reviews on audioreview.com and found very positive
>> comments on the Jolida JD1701 amp. From what I've read, it's a hybrid
>> of tubes and solid state. The price is very competitive, only at
>> $650.
>
>Pass. You should be able to get superb 5.1/6.1 sound for this
>amount of money. As good as a theatre sound quality in fact.
>
>> For now, I think I can salvage my CD-player (??). I presume the next
>> thing I need to do is get rid of the Bose speakers and purchase some
>> real speakers. I'll be doing the listening in a standard size
>> bedroom, and since there isn't much in the room, how about some floor
>> standing speakers?
>
>Sell both. The dedicated DVD player will make the CD player moot.
>I know the Sony was a nice player in its day, but it's really all
>about the chips inside. 24/96 decoders and dedicated circuitry makes
>even a budget DVD player toast most CD players and computer soundcards.
>
>Bose - yes - there are vastly better speakers out there. OTOH,
>yuppies who don't know better are enamoured with it, so you can
>often sell them for a lot of money used.
>
>> What speakers would you recommend? I understand that I need to go to
>> a store and listen to a bunch of them myself but I am just looking for
>> some historically good matched speakers to go with the amp. There are
>> so MANY speakers out there that it's overwhelming. Guess it'll come
>> down to personal preference?
>
>More on this later...
>
>> Speaking of which, how do you go about listening to speakers in store?
>> Do you bring your own CD's? Do you start at low volume and work your
>> way up? What are the things you listen for?
>
>Exactly. Okay - you want to go to an audio STORE - not a consumer
>electronics store. Ie - high-end audio store. They will have several
>low-end "budget" models as well. It should be quiet and properly
>set up.
>
>I play acapella and instrumental music, plus jazz. You are listening
>to how accurate and defined the sound is - if it is squashed together
>like a clock radio speaker(or Bose) or if you can listen to the
>same piece of music several times and focus on one insturment or
>hear all of them at the same time, yet all as discrete sounds.
>
>Jazz, especially if a good recording(Buena Vista Social Club is
>a good choice, IMO) and has good bass with several singers, is
>a rough workout for speakers - vocals have to be clean, you
>have to hear the insturments, and the bass is coming at you
>pretty loudly. Muddled sound is the norm for most budget
>speakers, though there are a few that shine and are in your
>price range.
>
>> Last question: Will I need some sort of preamp? Or will I be able to
>> directly connect my speakers to the amp?
>>
>> Thanks for helping a newbie.
>> Alex
>>
>
>Okay - nitty-gritty:
>Amp:
>Denon 2802 or Outlaw Audio 1050. $599
>Sony Progressive Scan DVD player. $300
>Subwoofer: HSU VTF-2 Best sub out there for the price. $499.
>$1400. Sell old system. $1000-1100 spent.
>$1200-1400 on speakers:
>
>(rough order of quality - IMO)
>
>- JBL Pro. They still make their old studio monitor line,
>the same as, well, nearly forever. Their 4200 and 4400
>series monitors are inexpensive and yet are very accurate
>and have great bass. Big, though. These are 1980's type
>bookshelf(heh) speakers and are built like it.
>
>*I need no sub*
>Re-read this again. ;)
>
>5.0 setup is perfectly doable with these. I have a
>4208 in the center channel spot, two 4408 rears, and
>two 4410s in the front. Two 8 inchers and two 10 inchers
>is way more bass than I need. :)
>
>Ie: you save $500 on the HSU sub right off. That gives you
>basically $2000 to spend on speakers - and the 4410s have
>low enough bass to make front towers moot(same cabinet size
>as a typical tower speaker, so same bass response).
>
>www.musiciansfriend.com has them on sale. Free shipping on the
>4408As, no tax outside of NY.
>$299 and $469 each, respectively. The 4410As may also have
>free shipping. That's like $150 right there over a local
>store since there is no tax.
>
>A 4408 setep is $1200 for four, plus a 4206/4208 center.
>You could afford a sub with this, in fact. I went for
>the $925 a pair 4410s plus the 4408s - ~1500 for all four.
>Specify right or left when you order.
>
>The 4208 (center since it is shielded) are roughly $250
>each($500 a pair). I had to go to a local distributor
>to get one only, though. I really didn't NEED a center
>channel, but got it so my son could run his videos without
>the entire system being on.
>
>Call JBL and ask for a distributor in your area - then
>go listen. Buy at musiciansfriend.com (heh)
>
>These are what I currently own as they were the lowest priced
>solution that sounded comparable to most $1000 a pair speakers.
>(say a Tannoy Saturn or simmilar)
>
>****
>- Tannoy makes excellent speakers. Not a dud in the lot. Their
>MXm line are shielded, and sound very good for the price - among
>the best deals in home audio. Good bass in the MXm-2.
>
>Their Revoltion line have the same components and better crossovers,
>and real wood finishes. Very nice. More money, though. OTOH,
>you could affford 4 R-1 speakers and a center, at about $1200
>for the entire set. Small, gorgeous sounding, and beautiful
>to look at. Huge WAF(Wife Acceptance Factor).
>$500 a pair. Most places will drop at least $200 off a full
>5 channel set, so figure $1200-$1300.
>
>Another option would be to go with MX1/MX2 surrounds and
>a pair of MX3 or MX4 towers in front. Towers, even small ones,
>will do more justice to everything you listen to, and the MXm
>series are pretty much the budget leader on good inexpensive towers.
>
>Tannoy pricing(since it is not listed on their site or
>online/easy to find)
>MXm1 $250
>MXm2 $350
>MXm3 $500(tower)
>MxM4 $700(tower)
>MXCenter $250
>MXr Surround $200(most everyone gets MX1s instead)
>
>R1 $450 a pair(if you haggle some - lists for $500)
>
>Haggle a bit on a full set - there is about 20% margin in them.
>Most places will not flinch at 10% off a full 5/6 speaker setup.
>
>****
>- KEF makes great speakers as well. They are good sounding,
>though a bit more money. OTOH, they have slightly deeper
>cabinets, so better bass.
>
>****
>- Ascend Acoustics. Their speakers are very good. They are
>well built, though simple to keep costs down. Nice drivers.
>Not good for music, though, as they cut out too high and
>require a subwoofer. OTOH, you are getting a subwoofer,
>so... 2nd best bang for the buck after Tannoy's MX line.
>
>****
>- Mirage. They make a MX series clone, their FRx line.
>I like Tannoy a bit more as they are retail priced, so
>there is some room to haggle. Mirage is a fixed no haggle
>price. Nice subs, btw - second place after HSU goes to
>Mirage's FRx sub.
>
>****
>****
>Hope this helps narrow down the choices some :)
>
>P.S. if you like the JBLs, you can always get a larger amp.
>A Denon 3802/3803 would be a fine match for these, though
>it is a more expensive amp. I run mine off of three old
>1980's era Yamaha CA-1000 amps and a budget Kenwood for the
>processor/tuner/etc, btw.