A good midprice turntable cartridge

[Allan Tremblay]

I just got a Dual 1216 turntable at the flea market this weekend, in
good working condition. It has a Shure M91ED cartridge, and I bought a
new but cheap imitation stylus which seems to work fine so far. I'm
having a great time rediscovering my LP collection, but I'm thinking
about getting a better quality cartridge and starting building a
collection of brand new records, mainly jazz stuff (Blue Note offers a
lot of reasonably priced LP reissues).

I looked around on the web and newsgroup, and am considering Shure,
Audio-Technica and maybe Grado. I looked at Garage-a-Records, and
picked those three for comparison purpose. They're all slightly below
a 100$ and seem to be generally well regarded:

Shure M97xE
Audio-Technica AT440ML
Grado Silver

I'd like to read opinions on these from people who have actually used
them. Opinions on cheaper but good value cartridges are welcomed, too.
I have a modest set-up, so I'm not considering high-end equipment.

Thanks everybody!

[dave weil]

On 13 Aug 2003 21:02:51 -0700, (Allan Tremblay)
wrote:

>I just got a Dual 1216 turntable at the flea market this weekend, in
>good working condition. It has a Shure M91ED cartridge, and I bought a
>new but cheap imitation stylus which seems to work fine so far. I'm
>having a great time rediscovering my LP collection, but I'm thinking
>about getting a better quality cartridge and starting building a
>collection of brand new records, mainly jazz stuff (Blue Note offers a
>lot of reasonably priced LP reissues).
>
>I looked around on the web and newsgroup, and am considering Shure,
>Audio-Technica and maybe Grado. I looked at Garage-a-Records, and
>picked those three for comparison purpose. They're all slightly below
>a 100$ and seem to be generally well regarded:
>
>Shure M97xE
>Audio-Technica AT440ML
>Grado Silver
>
>I'd like to read opinions on these from people who have actually used
>them. Opinions on cheaper but good value cartridges are welcomed, too.
>I have a modest set-up, so I'm not considering high-end equipment.
>
>Thanks everybody!

I bought a simple Grado Black for my ProJect One turntable and have
been very happy. It is an interim cartridge until I can afford
something better.

Grados *can* be hum producers on certain turntables, and I don't know
how they are on Duals, so you might want to try to borrow one if
possible and see how it performs. Of course, for the $35 that one
costs, you can probably afford to experiment.

[Moi]

On 13 Aug 2003 21:02:51 -0700, (Allan Tremblay)
wrote in >:

>I just got a Dual 1216 turntable at the flea market this weekend, in
>good working condition. It has a Shure M91ED cartridge, and I bought a
>new but cheap imitation stylus which seems to work fine so far. I'm
>having a great time rediscovering my LP collection, but I'm thinking
>about getting a better quality cartridge and starting building a
>collection of brand new records, mainly jazz stuff (Blue Note offers a
>lot of reasonably priced LP reissues).
>
>I looked around on the web and newsgroup, and am considering Shure,
>Audio-Technica and maybe Grado. I looked at Garage-a-Records, and
>picked those three for comparison purpose. They're all slightly below
>a 100$ and seem to be generally well regarded:
>
>Shure M97xE

Smooth, polite and inoffensive -- great for those late-night Mantovani
and Andre Kostelanetz parties.

>Audio-Technica AT440ML

Excellent bang for the buck, tight bass, superb detail and fluidity, a
bit on the bright side but nothing serious. If it's not too bad a
tonearm mismatch, go directly for the above and don't look back.

>Grado Silver

Halfway decent but nothing special, has a tendency to mistrack --
never cared much for the Grado Prestige line of cartridges,
personally. They sound so ho-hum to me.

>I'd like to read opinions on these from people who have actually used
>them.

I haven't used the Silver specifically, but have used others from the
Grado Prestige lineup... IMHO they're all about the same. Used the
M97xE for a year or more, my current cartridge is the AT440ML.

[Moi]

On Thu, 14 Aug 2003 07:12:05 GMT, Moi >
wrote in >:

>On 13 Aug 2003 21:02:51 -0700, (Allan Tremblay)
>wrote in >:
>
>>I just got a Dual 1216 turntable at the flea market this weekend, in
>>good working condition. It has a Shure M91ED cartridge, and I bought a
>>new but cheap imitation stylus which seems to work fine so far. I'm
>>having a great time rediscovering my LP collection, but I'm thinking
>>about getting a better quality cartridge and starting building a
>>collection of brand new records, mainly jazz stuff (Blue Note offers a
>>lot of reasonably priced LP reissues).
>>
>>I looked around on the web and newsgroup, and am considering Shure,
>>Audio-Technica and maybe Grado. I looked at Garage-a-Records, and
>>picked those three for comparison purpose. They're all slightly below
>>a 100$ and seem to be generally well regarded:
>>
>>Shure M97xE
>
>Smooth, polite and inoffensive -- great for those late-night Mantovani
>and Andre Kostelanetz parties.

I should add that the M97xE is quite good with stuff like slower jazz,
acoustic folk, and other slower sorts of music (realism is pretty
decent with acoustic stuff). However, put on a rock LP or some really
swinging jazz and I think you'd be seriously disappointed.

Not such a hot tracker either, in my opinion (at least with the
Thorens TP-16 MkI tonearm) -- it passes the first HFNRR "torture
track," then begins to weaken fast with the second. Forget the third
and fourth altogether, nothing but distortion.

[Arny Krueger]

"Allan Tremblay" > wrote in message
om
> I just got a Dual 1216 turntable at the flea market this weekend, in
> good working condition. It has a Shure M91ED cartridge, and I bought a
> new but cheap imitation stylus which seems to work fine so far. I'm
> having a great time rediscovering my LP collection, but I'm thinking
> about getting a better quality cartridge and starting building a
> collection of brand new records, mainly jazz stuff (Blue Note offers a
> lot of reasonably priced LP reissues).
>
> I looked around on the web and newsgroup, and am considering Shure,
> Audio-Technica and maybe Grado. I looked at Garage-a-Records, and
> picked those three for comparison purpose. They're all slightly below
> a 100$ and seem to be generally well regarded:
>
> Shure M97xE
> Audio-Technica AT440ML
> Grado Silver

> I'd like to read opinions on these from people who have actually used
> them.

I have a M97e and a Grado Silver. They are two really very different
cartridges. Each is fine in its way. I don't have the same arm as you, and
that is significant as well.

My take is that the Shure is more tolerant of massy arms, but you have to
get its capacitive loading right if you want it to have uncolored sound. In
contrast the Grado is tolerant of various amounts of capacitive loading, but
more intolerant of overly-massy tone arms. Both track loud passages and
transients well.

[dave weil]

On 14 Aug 2003 05:53:54 GMT, in rec.audio.opinion you wrote:

>I'll second the suggestion re. Grado cartridges. I've used Grados for years,
>and have always considered them to be very good value for the money. Of
>course, they make models at a very large number of different price points.
>I've only heard of hum problems occurring with Grados when used with Rega
>turntables, but as you suggest, it would be good to check this out first.
>FWIW, I've often seen various Grado cartridges, "new in box" for sale on eBay
>and sometimes on Audiogon at significant savings.

They are also known to have issues with AR turntables as well.

I didn't know that about Rega. Origin Live, the leading Rega modders,
recommend Grado on their website.

[Shrivel]

I have a Dual/AT440 combo and am relatively pleased.

The only criticism of the AT440 I have is that it seems to have an annoying
ability to get small dirt/dust particles wedged behind the tip of the
stylus. This happens once every few months and I generally keep my
collection clean and I always use a Discwasher brush before every playing.

As far as sound quality, it sounds excellent. As Moi said, the AT440 is
pretty bright, but that's a good match for my laid-back system and the bass
extension is great. It's dead quiet in terms of background noise. You'd
probably have to spend 3 times as much to get significantly better sound. I
haven't used the other 2 cartridges, so I can't compare to them.

BTM


"Allan Tremblay" > wrote in message
om...
> I just got a Dual 1216 turntable at the flea market this weekend, in
> good working condition. It has a Shure M91ED cartridge, and I bought a
> new but cheap imitation stylus which seems to work fine so far. I'm
> having a great time rediscovering my LP collection, but I'm thinking
> about getting a better quality cartridge and starting building a
> collection of brand new records, mainly jazz stuff (Blue Note offers a
> lot of reasonably priced LP reissues).
>
> I looked around on the web and newsgroup, and am considering Shure,
> Audio-Technica and maybe Grado. I looked at Garage-a-Records, and
> picked those three for comparison purpose. They're all slightly below
> a 100$ and seem to be generally well regarded:
>
> Shure M97xE
> Audio-Technica AT440ML
> Grado Silver
>
> I'd like to read opinions on these from people who have actually used
> them. Opinions on cheaper but good value cartridges are welcomed, too.
> I have a modest set-up, so I'm not considering high-end equipment.
>
> Thanks everybody!

[Marc Phillips]

dave said:

>On 14 Aug 2003 05:53:54 GMT, in rec.audio.opinion you wrote:
>
>>I'll second the suggestion re. Grado cartridges. I've used Grados for
>years,
>>and have always considered them to be very good value for the money. Of
>>course, they make models at a very large number of different price points.
>>I've only heard of hum problems occurring with Grados when used with Rega
>>turntables, but as you suggest, it would be good to check this out first.
>>FWIW, I've often seen various Grado cartridges, "new in box" for sale on
>eBay
>>and sometimes on Audiogon at significant savings.
>
>They are also known to have issues with AR turntables as well.
>
>I didn't know that about Rega. Origin Live, the leading Rega modders,
>recommend Grado on their website.

Grados can definitely cause hum problems in Regas, but it appears that the
wooden-bodied Grados are much better than the Prestiges and the older models in
this respect. A lot of tweaking (i.e. very careful set-up) can also ameliorate
the hum.

I've also had a few people report that Grados can hum with some Music halls.

[Bruce J. Richman]

Mr. Phillips wrote:


>dave said:
>
>>On 14 Aug 2003 05:53:54 GMT, in rec.audio.opinion you wrote:
>>
>>>I'll second the suggestion re. Grado cartridges. I've used Grados for
>>years,
>>>and have always considered them to be very good value for the money. Of
>>>course, they make models at a very large number of different price points.
>>>I've only heard of hum problems occurring with Grados when used with Rega
>>>turntables, but as you suggest, it would be good to check this out first.
>>>FWIW, I've often seen various Grado cartridges, "new in box" for sale on
>>eBay
>>>and sometimes on Audiogon at significant savings.
>>
>>They are also known to have issues with AR turntables as well.
>>
>>I didn't know that about Rega. Origin Live, the leading Rega modders,
>>recommend Grado on their website.
>
>Grados can definitely cause hum problems in Regas, but it appears that the
>wooden-bodied Grados are much better than the Prestiges and the older models
>in
>this respect. A lot of tweaking (i.e. very careful set-up) can also
>ameliorate
>the hum.
>
>I've also had a few people report that Grados can hum with some Music halls.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

I've had no problems, however, with Grados and VPI turntables (VPI Jr., Mark
IV, or Aries). I've used, over a period of time, the Grado MCZ, Platinum &
Reference. While the last 2 are wood-bodies, the MCZ was not, and even that
cartridge performed satisfactorily on a VPI Jr. I agree that careful attention
to setup and grounding definitely helps.



Bruce J. Richman

[Allan Tremblay]

Thank you everyone for your recommendations!

Well, so far the AT440 seems to have the edge... I'm only wondering
how it will react to some old and not-so-clean LPs. Aren't high
precision carts more sensitive to scratches and dirt? Maybe I could
try to find another TT and have one for crappy LPs and another for
mint condition ones...

Anyway, for the moment, the old M91ED is working great for the money
I've put on it... And it's not a bad cart, from some posts I read in
the archives.

Thanks again.

[Bruce J. Richman]

Alan Tremblay wrote:


>Thank you everyone for your recommendations!
>
>Well, so far the AT440 seems to have the edge... I'm only wondering
>how it will react to some old and not-so-clean LPs. Aren't high
>precision carts more sensitive to scratches and dirt? Maybe I could
>try to find another TT and have one for crappy LPs and another for
>mint condition ones...
>

You may not be able to eliminate scratches on your records that are deep enough
to produce audible noise (not all scratches are audible during playback).
However, the best product I've found to deal with dirty records, which can
produce a lot of noise, is the Disc Doctor brush and cleaner system. These
products have been endorsed by a number of record archives, journalists, etc.
You can read about them at:

www.discdoc.com


The "before-and-after" effects of this system on really dirty records is not
subtle! Check it out.








>Anyway, for the moment, the old M91ED is working great for the money
>I've put on it... And it's not a bad cart, from some posts I read in
>the archives.
>
>Thanks again.
>
>
>
>
>
>


Bruce J. Richman

[Powell]

"Bruce J. Richman" wrote

> The "before-and-after" effects of this system on
> really dirty records is not subtle! Check it out.
>
I received a new Musicdirect catalog. There
is a new product by DuPont call Premier LP
Cleaner... an aerosol spray cleaner for use
with a dry brush. It can also be used as a
pre-cleaner before vacuuming.

http://www.amusicdirect.com/products/detail.asp?sku=AMCP

[Bruce J. Richman]

Powell wrote:


>
>"Bruce J. Richman" wrote
>
>> The "before-and-after" effects of this system on
>> really dirty records is not subtle! Check it out.
>>
>I received a new Musicdirect catalog. There
>is a new product by DuPont call Premier LP
>Cleaner... an aerosol spray cleaner for use
>with a dry brush. It can also be used as a
>pre-cleaner before vacuuming.
>
>http://www.amusicdirect.com/products/detail.asp?sku=AMCP
>
>
>
>
>

I actually use thr Disc Disc brushes and cleaner in conjunction with a VPI 16.5
record cleaning machine, but basically jusst use the machine for the vacuum
drying. The DD brushes are better (as is the cleaner) than the brush and fluid
that comes with the machine. It's also more effective than Torumat and other
liquid cleaners I've tried in the past.

By the way, you're not allowed to mention MusicDirect around here :) Nor
Acoustic Sounds, Red Trumpet, eBay, Better Records, etc. Certain digital and
PC bigots salivate like one of Pavlov's dogs when they see these words.



Bruce J. Richman

[Moi]

On Thu, 14 Aug 2003 09:55:14 -0400, "Shrivel"
> wrote in
>:

>I have a Dual/AT440 combo and am relatively pleased.
>
>The only criticism of the AT440 I have is that it seems to have an annoying
>ability to get small dirt/dust particles wedged behind the tip of the
>stylus. This happens once every few months and I generally keep my
>collection clean and I always use a Discwasher brush before every playing.

This is pretty normal with a line-contact stylus... they contact
significantly more groove area, so tend to pick up more dust & dirt
(they're also quite a bit smaller than the average 0.3 mil
elliptical... in the case of the 440ML, 0.12 mil).

>As far as sound quality, it sounds excellent. As Moi said, the AT440 is
>pretty bright, but that's a good match for my laid-back system and the bass
>extension is great.

It definitely has a hump in upper treble (I measured it)... something
like between 5KHz and 10KHz, if I remember right.

Neutrality is better of course, but I personally prefer a tipped-up
treble (sort of enhances the sense of detail) than the "warm" tipped
up midbass of Stantons, which sounds really unnatural to my ears.

>It's dead quiet in terms of background noise. You'd
>probably have to spend 3 times as much to get significantly better sound.

Agreed... maybe even 5 times as much. Detail retrieval is really
remarkable, in my opinion... it's a very "fast" cartridge and I've
never noticed any sibilance, even with LP's that just brought the
M97xE to its figurative knees. Audio-Technica really has something
going with this cart at the price they're selling it, and I've noticed
it just keeps getting more & more popular and talked/raved about on
vinyl-related forums recently -- IMHO for good reason.

[Moi]

If there's any interest I'd be happy to post a 30-second sample of
something well known, recorded with my AT440ML/TD-160 combination, in
some reasonably high quality format. Even if it's MP3, it'll give a
good idea of the general frequency balance of the cartridge (at least
with my system, which is completely solid state).

[George Mann]

[posted and mailed]

(Allan Tremblay) wrote in
om:

> I just got a Dual 1216 turntable at the flea market this weekend, in
> good working condition. It has a Shure M91ED cartridge, and I bought a
> new but cheap imitation stylus which seems to work fine so far. I'm
> having a great time rediscovering my LP collection, but I'm thinking
> about getting a better quality cartridge and starting building a
> collection of brand new records, mainly jazz stuff (Blue Note offers a
> lot of reasonably priced LP reissues).
>
> I looked around on the web and newsgroup, and am considering Shure,
> Audio-Technica and maybe Grado. I looked at Garage-a-Records, and
> picked those three for comparison purpose. They're all slightly below
> a 100$ and seem to be generally well regarded:
>
> Shure M97xE
> Audio-Technica AT440ML
> Grado Silver
>
> I'd like to read opinions on these from people who have actually used
> them. Opinions on cheaper but good value cartridges are welcomed, too.
> I have a modest set-up, so I'm not considering high-end equipment.
>
> Thanks everybody!

The Ortofon OM series is what you are looking for. They are designed to
work with your turntable.

[Daniel]

Moi > wrote in message >...
> On Thu, 14 Aug 2003 09:55:14 -0400, "Shrivel"
> > wrote in
> >:

> >As far as sound quality, it sounds excellent. As Moi said, the AT440 is
> >pretty bright, but that's a good match for my laid-back system and the bass
> >extension is great.
>
> It definitely has a hump in upper treble (I measured it)... something
> like between 5KHz and 10KHz, if I remember right.
>

What is a "hump" and what does that mean in terms of sound quality? Thanks.

[Moi]

On 17 Aug 2003 10:38:49 -0700, (Daniel) wrote in
>:

>Moi > wrote in message >...
>> On Thu, 14 Aug 2003 09:55:14 -0400, "Shrivel"
>> > wrote in
>> >:
>
>> >As far as sound quality, it sounds excellent. As Moi said, the AT440 is
>> >pretty bright, but that's a good match for my laid-back system and the bass
>> >extension is great.
>>
>> It definitely has a hump in upper treble (I measured it)... something
>> like between 5KHz and 10KHz, if I remember right.
>>
>
>What is a "hump" and what does that mean in terms of sound quality? Thanks.

Just a boosted response in that area of frequencies, which means an
emphasis. In terms of sound quality, it makes the cartridge sound
somewhat "bright" and treble-emphasized.

[Daniel]

Moi > wrote in message >...
> On 17 Aug 2003 10:38:49 -0700, (Daniel) wrote in
> >:
>
> >Moi > wrote in message >...
> >> On Thu, 14 Aug 2003 09:55:14 -0400, "Shrivel"
> >> > wrote in
> >> >:
>
> >> >As far as sound quality, it sounds excellent. As Moi said, the AT440 is
> >> >pretty bright, but that's a good match for my laid-back system and the bass
> >> >extension is great.
> >>
> >> It definitely has a hump in upper treble (I measured it)... something
> >> like between 5KHz and 10KHz, if I remember right.
> >>
> >
> >What is a "hump" and what does that mean in terms of sound quality? Thanks.
>
> Just a boosted response in that area of frequencies, which means an
> emphasis. In terms of sound quality, it makes the cartridge sound
> somewhat "bright" and treble-emphasized.

Thank you.