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MiNE 109
August 7th 03, 09:36 PM
In article >,
(Sathyan Sundaram) wrote:

> Can you recommend an entry-level ($400 or less, used is fine)
> HDCD-capable external stereo DAC? It will be used with a Pioneer
> DV-563 as transport. Either Optical or Coaxial is fine. The overall
> system is mass market HT (Onkyo electronics, KLH speakers, Radio Shack
> interconnects) so audiophile-grade is not necessary. At present I
> can't listen to HDCD's as HDCD's. Redbooks sound a bit veiled and
> lacking final definition in imaging. (I didn't notice this until
> listening to SACD's) Or am I better off getting a Cambridge Audio
> dedicated CD player (500SE)?

A quick Google shows the Aragon D2A2k; the Musical Fidelity X-DAC; and
the Assemblage DAC -2 in approximately your price range.

IMO you'd be better off with a used Arcam or Rotel player with HDCD than
with a DAC for the price.

I'd look at a speaker upgrade someday.

And if you want the benefits of HDCD, don't use the digital connection
from the player to the receiver, assuming there is one!

Stephen

Arny Krueger
August 7th 03, 09:59 PM
"Sathyan Sundaram" > wrote in message
om
> Can you recommend an entry-level ($400 or less, used is fine)
> HDCD-capable external stereo DAC? It will be used with a Pioneer
> DV-563 as transport. Either Optical or Coaxial is fine. The overall
> system is mass market HT (Onkyo electronics, KLH speakers, Radio Shack
> interconnects) so audiophile-grade is not necessary. At present I
> can't listen to HDCD's as HDCD's. Redbooks sound a bit veiled and
> lacking final definition in imaging. (I didn't notice this until
> listening to SACD's) Or am I better off getting a Cambridge Audio
> dedicated CD player (500SE)?

I recommend that you forget about HDCD. If you have some and they play
off-level it would make more sense to rip them on a computer, fix the tracks
up with a digital editor, and burn CD-Rs unless you have lots of them. This
medium was always a solution looking for a problem. Now, its been obsolesced
by DVD-A and SACD, both of which are probably on their way to a nearby part
of oblivion.

Kalman Rubinson
August 7th 03, 10:02 PM
On Thu, 07 Aug 2003 20:36:08 GMT, MiNE 109 >
wrote:

>IMO you'd be better off with a used Arcam or Rotel player with HDCD than
>with a DAC for the price.
>
>I'd look at a speaker upgrade someday.

Agreed. In fact, I'd go for a speaker upgrade first, player next, and
put off the DAC indefinitely.

Kal

Thine Deville
August 8th 03, 01:05 AM
Excremental Engeenea'r wrote:

>obsolesced

I'm impressed! Good job your spelling checker is activated. Well done
of figuring that out too.

--
Thine

Thine Deville
August 8th 03, 01:10 AM
On Fri, 08 Aug 2003 01:05:50 +0100, Thine Deville
> wrote:

>of

On.

Off.

My, how that coffin wreaks havoc with a hernia*.

--
Thine

*Obligatory dead-Nate mention

JBorg
August 8th 03, 04:12 AM
> Arny Krueger wrote:
>> "Sathyan Sundaram" wrote

ATTN: SATHYAN


>> Can you recommend an entry-level ($400 or less, used is fine)
>> HDCD-capable external stereo DAC? It will be used with a Pioneer
>> DV-563 as transport. Either Optical or Coaxial is fine. The overall
>> system is mass market HT (Onkyo electronics, KLH speakers, Radio Shack
>> interconnects) so audiophile-grade is not necessary. At present I
>> can't listen to HDCD's as HDCD's. Redbooks sound a bit veiled and
>> lacking final definition in imaging. (I didn't notice this until
>> listening to SACD's) Or am I better off getting a Cambridge Audio
>> dedicated CD player (500SE)?

I think you should get SACD, Sathyan.


> I recommend that you forget about HDCD.

More precisely, I recommend that you ignore every worthless, fecal-coated
trash that comes out of Arnii's mouth. You see, he is trying to pollute
this fine thread again just like what he did to the "Vinyl/CD Poll."

The reason for all this stupidity is due to his substandard hearing acuity
coupled with imbalances to his mental health. He is not well up there you
know.


No matter how much ass whoopin these two ie Fesrtler & Krooger get
here at RAO, they'll keep comin back at you asking for more. Remember what
I said about the "mental" part? Well, make a note of it because right now,
Fesrtler and Arnii are scratching each others butt.

Arny Krueger
August 8th 03, 09:58 AM
"JBorg" > wrote in message
om

> I think you should get SACD, Sathyan.

Talk is cheap.

> More precisely, I recommend that you ignore every worthless,
> fecal-coated trash that comes out of Arnii's mouth. You see, he is
> trying to pollute this fine thread again just like what he did to the
> "Vinyl/CD Poll."

Let's talk about polluting a thread, Borg.

Here Borg, we have from you the first personal attack on the thread. It's
actually been a civil thread right up until you crapped all over it.

> The reason for all this stupidity is due to his substandard hearing
> acuity coupled with imbalances to his mental health. He is not well
> up there you know.

I think that your foul behavior speaks for itself, Borg.

> No matter how much ass whoopin these two ie (sic) Fesrtler (sic) & Krooger
(sic) get
> here at RAO, they'll keep comin back at you asking for more.

I guess that's your standard for posting on RAO - how much of an
ass-whoopin' you can deliver, eh Borg?

> Remember what I said about the "mental" part? Well, make a note of
> it because right now, Fesrtler (sic) and Arnii (sic) are scratching each
others
> butt.

<Borg is such a mental giant that he can't even properly spell the names of
the people he attacks!>

Sathyan Sundaram
August 8th 03, 09:17 PM
MiNE 109 > wrote in message >...
> In article >,
> (Sathyan Sundaram) wrote:
>
> > Can you recommend an entry-level ($400 or less, used is fine)
> > HDCD-capable external stereo DAC? It will be used with a Pioneer
> > DV-563 as transport. Either Optical or Coaxial is fine. The overall
> > system is mass market HT (Onkyo electronics, KLH speakers, Radio Shack
> > interconnects) so audiophile-grade is not necessary. At present I
> > can't listen to HDCD's as HDCD's. Redbooks sound a bit veiled and
> > lacking final definition in imaging. (I didn't notice this until
> > listening to SACD's) Or am I better off getting a Cambridge Audio
> > dedicated CD player (500SE)?
>
> A quick Google shows the Aragon D2A2k; the Musical Fidelity X-DAC; and
> the Assemblage DAC -2 in approximately your price range.
>
> IMO you'd be better off with a used Arcam or Rotel player with HDCD than
> with a DAC for the price.
>
> I'd look at a speaker upgrade someday.
>
> And if you want the benefits of HDCD, don't use the digital connection
> from the player to the receiver, assuming there is one!
>
> Stephen



Thank you. I will look into the Arcam and Rotel. I think my local
audio shop is a Rotel dealer.

Upon review, I've discovered I don't have that many HDCD's (a grand
total of 4, and three of those come from mass-market labels which
probably don't take advantage of the technology). So, I'll drop that
requirement.
I'm not happy with the sound I'm getting from redbooks. On the same
system I listen to SACD, DVD-A, and LP*s and they (the latter only
when clean) tend to sound more open, spacious, greater depth, more
accurate imaging and more of a "presence". I don't think this is a
limitation of redbook technology as I've heard better from expensive
players. (I suppose I should mention the genres - I listen to
classical [symphonies primarily - Beethoven thru Prokofiev/Shosty],
opera [mostly Verdi and Puccini], and jazz [50s-70s]). So the question
is: How can I make CDs sound better for about $400.

I'm trying to buy SACDs whenever possible but the catalogue is
limited. Otherwise I'm tempted to just rebuy on SACD to fix the
problem.

Do any dedicated CD players do onboard PCM bass management?

re: speakers. I plan to upgrade those once I get a house and can
dedicate a room. Right now my listening room is my bedroom with all
sorts of obstructions. All I could afford to upgrade to would be
Mirage FRx-5 or Energy AC-300, and that for fronts only. In the
meantime the KLH are OK for background listening; for serious
listening I resort to Grado headphones.

thanks
Sathyan



* = this is not an invitation for a digital vs. vinyl dispute. they
can coexist.

MiNE 109
August 9th 03, 01:01 AM
In article >,
(Sathyan Sundaram) wrote:

> MiNE 109 > wrote in message
> >...
> > In article >,
> > (Sathyan Sundaram) wrote:
> >
> > > Can you recommend an entry-level ($400 or less, used is fine)
> > > HDCD-capable external stereo DAC? It will be used with a Pioneer
> > > DV-563 as transport. Either Optical or Coaxial is fine. The overall
> > > system is mass market HT (Onkyo electronics, KLH speakers, Radio Shack
> > > interconnects) so audiophile-grade is not necessary. At present I
> > > can't listen to HDCD's as HDCD's. Redbooks sound a bit veiled and
> > > lacking final definition in imaging. (I didn't notice this until
> > > listening to SACD's) Or am I better off getting a Cambridge Audio
> > > dedicated CD player (500SE)?
> >
> > A quick Google shows the Aragon D2A2k; the Musical Fidelity X-DAC; and
> > the Assemblage DAC -2 in approximately your price range.
> >
> > IMO you'd be better off with a used Arcam or Rotel player with HDCD than
> > with a DAC for the price.
> >
> > I'd look at a speaker upgrade someday.
> >
> > And if you want the benefits of HDCD, don't use the digital connection
> > from the player to the receiver, assuming there is one!

> Thank you. I will look into the Arcam and Rotel. I think my local
> audio shop is a Rotel dealer.
>
> Upon review, I've discovered I don't have that many HDCD's (a grand
> total of 4, and three of those come from mass-market labels which
> probably don't take advantage of the technology). So, I'll drop that
> requirement.
> I'm not happy with the sound I'm getting from redbooks. On the same
> system I listen to SACD, DVD-A, and LP*s and they (the latter only
> when clean) tend to sound more open, spacious, greater depth, more
> accurate imaging and more of a "presence". I don't think this is a
> limitation of redbook technology as I've heard better from expensive
> players. (I suppose I should mention the genres - I listen to
> classical [symphonies primarily - Beethoven thru Prokofiev/Shosty],
> opera [mostly Verdi and Puccini], and jazz [50s-70s]). So the question
> is: How can I make CDs sound better for about $400.

Used Rotel or Arcam is still a good bet. I like the Ring DAC although
the Arcam 9 is about 50% over your budget at Audiogon. It might be worth
it in the long run.

> I'm trying to buy SACDs whenever possible but the catalogue is
> limited. Otherwise I'm tempted to just rebuy on SACD to fix the
> problem.

It seems odd that the cd portion of a universal player would be
compromised, but there have been anecdotes that inexpensive DVD players
have distorting analog outputs.

> Do any dedicated CD players do onboard PCM bass management?
>
> re: speakers. I plan to upgrade those once I get a house and can
> dedicate a room. Right now my listening room is my bedroom with all
> sorts of obstructions. All I could afford to upgrade to would be
> Mirage FRx-5 or Energy AC-300, and that for fronts only. In the
> meantime the KLH are OK for background listening; for serious
> listening I resort to Grado headphones.

Sounds like you have a plan for the speakers.

Stephen

Sathyan Sundaram
August 9th 03, 05:30 PM
MiNE 109 > wrote in message >...
> Used Rotel or Arcam is still a good bet. I like the Ring DAC although
> the Arcam 9 is about 50% over your budget at Audiogon. It might be worth
> it in the long run.
>

One more question: How important is it to have upsampling for redbook playback?

MiNE 109
August 9th 03, 08:01 PM
In article >,
(Sathyan Sundaram) wrote:

> MiNE 109 > wrote in message
> >...
> > Used Rotel or Arcam is still a good bet. I like the Ring DAC although
> > the Arcam 9 is about 50% over your budget at Audiogon. It might be worth
> > it in the long run.
> >
>
> One more question: How important is it to have upsampling for redbook
> playback?

It makes it easier to design filters, so most DACs use it in some form.
The new AR CD3 is an exception that shows it isn't absolutely necessary
for good sound.

There's no practical difference between "oversampling" and "upsampling".

Stephen