Re: High End Hyperbole

[Robert Morein]

"Trevor Wilson" > wrote in message
...
> A great deal of comment is made about the hyperbole surrounding the
> advertising copy for many high end audio products. Some of this hyperbole
> makes some sense. Much does not. Much deserves to be criticised
accordingly.
> However, we rarely see comments about mass market products. I thought
you'd
> enjoy these words I found in the Marantz SR18 receiver service manual:
>
> ---
> DTS
> An amazing new technology for surround-sound entertainment, DTS Digital
> Surround is an encode/decode system that delivers six channels (5.1) of
> master-quality, 20-bit audio. ........<SNIP>
> ......Each of these six channels is audibly superior to the linear PCM
audio
> found on conventional compact discs.
> ---
>
> Hmmm.
>
It's arguably true. Correct me if my understanding of the facts is not
correct:
1. DTS is encoded from 20 bit linear material.
2. Up to some level of compression, the total amount of information
presented to the listener with 20 bit compressed material exceeds 16 bit PCM
without compression.

With these arguments, high bit-rate DTS was at one time promoted as the
logical successor to PCM.
It was bantered that the reason that SACD and DVD-Audio were invented was to
profit hardware makers, and circumvent the still booming problem of CD
piracy, by replacing the Redbook format with something that could be
watermarked.

[Arny Krueger]

"Trevor Wilson" > wrote in message


> A great deal of comment is made about the hyperbole surrounding the
> advertising copy for many high end audio products. Some of this
> hyperbole makes some sense. Much does not. Much deserves to be
> criticised accordingly. However, we rarely see comments about mass
> market products. I thought you'd enjoy these words I found in the
> Marantz SR18 receiver service manual:

> ---
> DTS
> An amazing new technology for surround-sound entertainment, DTS
> Digital Surround is an encode/decode system that delivers six
> channels (5.1) of master-quality, 20-bit audio. ........<SNIP>

DTS is "new technology"???

> ......Each of these six channels is audibly superior to the linear
> PCM audio found on conventional compact discs.

Some fool let a marketing guy sit with the technical writers...

[Moi]

On Fri, 1 Aug 2003 06:02:51 -0400, "Arny Krueger" >
wrote in >:

>> ......Each of these six channels is audibly superior to the linear
>> PCM audio found on conventional compact discs.
>
>Some fool let a marketing guy sit with the technical writers...

Yep, it does sound like some poor fool at a *company* trying to *make
money*. Damn fools, whatever were they thinking?

---
"It occurred to me that audio engineers will someday be replaced by
computers. I feel better now -- at least you can turn a computer off."

[Arny Krueger]

"Moi" > wrote in message

> On Fri, 1 Aug 2003 06:02:51 -0400, "Arny Krueger" >
> wrote in >:
>
>>> ......Each of these six channels is audibly superior to the linear
>>> PCM audio found on conventional compact discs.
>>
>> Some fool let a marketing guy sit with the technical writers...
>
> Yep, it does sound like some poor fool at a *company* trying to *make
> money*. Damn fools, whatever were they thinking?

You are aware that the text in question was in a service manual, not an
advertisement for the product?

[Arny Krueger]

"George M. Middius" > wrote in message

> Moi said to ****-for-Brains:
>
>>>> ......Each of these six channels is audibly superior to the linear
>>>> PCM audio found on conventional compact discs.
>
>>> Some fool let a marketing guy sit with the technical writers...
>
>> Yep, it does sound like some poor fool at a *company* trying to *make
>> money*. Damn fools, whatever were they thinking?
>
> I'll tell you one thing that wasn't on anybody's mind -- trying to
> guess what kind of perverted behavior Krooger thinks gets a person
> into "heaven".

Speaking of your perverted behavior Middius, please tell us about the kinds
of perverted behavior that you haven't personally engaged in.

[Moi]

On Fri, 1 Aug 2003 08:34:53 -0400, "Arny Krueger" >
wrote in >:

>"Moi" > wrote in message

>> On Fri, 1 Aug 2003 06:02:51 -0400, "Arny Krueger" >
>> wrote in >:
>>
>>>> ......Each of these six channels is audibly superior to the linear
>>>> PCM audio found on conventional compact discs.
>>>
>>> Some fool let a marketing guy sit with the technical writers...
>>
>> Yep, it does sound like some poor fool at a *company* trying to *make
>> money*. Damn fools, whatever were they thinking?
>
>You are aware that the text in question was in a service manual, not an
>advertisement for the product?

Trevor Wilson said it was a service manual, but it sounds more likely
to me that it was what we (at least in the USA) call an owner's
manual. It's common for the hyperbole to continue in manuals that
accompany product, especially in mid to high end type stuff.

Perhaps Trevor could clear this up definitively. I think of a service
manual as directed specifically at servicing a unit -- something that
would be sent to a repair shop or technician and not distributed along
with the unit.

---
"It occurred to me that audio engineers will someday be replaced by
computers. I feel better now -- at least you can turn a computer off."

[Bruce J. Richman]

Moi wrote:


>On Fri, 1 Aug 2003 08:34:53 -0400, "Arny Krueger" >
>wrote in >:
>
>>"Moi" > wrote in message

>>> On Fri, 1 Aug 2003 06:02:51 -0400, "Arny Krueger" >
>>> wrote in >:
>>>
>>>>> ......Each of these six channels is audibly superior to the linear
>>>>> PCM audio found on conventional compact discs.
>>>>
>>>> Some fool let a marketing guy sit with the technical writers...
>>>
>>> Yep, it does sound like some poor fool at a *company* trying to *make
>>> money*. Damn fools, whatever were they thinking?
>>
>>You are aware that the text in question was in a service manual, not an
>>advertisement for the product?
>
>Trevor Wilson said it was a service manual, but it sounds more likely
>to me that it was what we (at least in the USA) call an owner's
>manual. It's common for the hyperbole to continue in manuals that
>accompany product, especially in mid to high end type stuff.
>
>Perhaps Trevor could clear this up definitively. I think of a service
>manual as directed specifically at servicing a unit -- something that
>would be sent to a repair shop or technician and not distributed along
>with the unit.
>

That would be my assumption also. For example, when I acquired my current
mobile head unit, a Nakamichi TD-1200 Type 2 Mobile Dragon, the seller, who
happened to be a Nakamichi collector with an electronics engineering
background, included not only the owner's manual, but also a very detailed
service manual. The former contains the usual self-serving claims made by most
manufacturers. The latter contains many schematics, parts lists, etc. and is
obviously meant for technicians.






>---
>"It occurred to me that audio engineers will someday be replaced by
>computers. I feel better now -- at least you can turn a computer off."
>
>
>
>
>
>
>


Bruce J. Richman

[tor b]

"Arny Krueger" > wrote in message >...
<snipped>
>
> Speaking of your perverted behavior Middius, please tell us about the kinds
> of perverted behavior that you haven't personally engaged in.
>

Well, we know he isn't 'doing' Trotsky anymore. ;-)

[Robert Morein]

"Trevor Wilson" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Robert Morein" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > "Trevor Wilson" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > > A great deal of comment is made about the hyperbole surrounding the
> > > advertising copy for many high end audio products. Some of this
> hyperbole
> > > makes some sense. Much does not. Much deserves to be criticised
> > accordingly.
> > > However, we rarely see comments about mass market products. I thought
> > you'd
> > > enjoy these words I found in the Marantz SR18 receiver service manual:
> > >
> > > ---
> > > DTS
> > > An amazing new technology for surround-sound entertainment, DTS
Digital
> > > Surround is an encode/decode system that delivers six channels (5.1)
of
> > > master-quality, 20-bit audio. ........<SNIP>
> > > ......Each of these six channels is audibly superior to the linear PCM
> > audio
> > > found on conventional compact discs.
> > > ---
> > >
> > > Hmmm.
> > >
> > It's arguably true. Correct me if my understanding of the facts is not
> > correct:
> > 1. DTS is encoded from 20 bit linear material.
> > 2. Up to some level of compression, the total amount of information
> > presented to the listener with 20 bit compressed material exceeds 16 bit
> PCM
> > without compression.
> >
> > With these arguments, high bit-rate DTS was at one time promoted as the
> > logical successor to PCM.
>
> **Maybe. However, I am commenting only on the words contained within the
> manual. There are several problems with those words:
>
> * Many feel that the difference between 16/44 digital and 20 bit is
> inaudible.
> * It is not possible for DTS to possess more resolution than 16/44
digital.
> DTS is a lossy system. Data is removed, then reconstructed. It can never
be
> as accurate.
>
Well, I struggled through Gallagher's "Information Theory" one semester.
It is very definitely possible -- not to say that it is in any particular
case -- for material compressed lossily to contain more information than a
particular uncompressed scheme.

Information is defined in bits/second.
The data rate of 16 bit audio is, of course, 44,100 x 16 /second
The data rate of 20 bit audio is 44,100 x 20/second

Perceptual issues aside, a compression transcoding scheme has the effect of
reducing the bitrate by some factor. It's like a funnel. A transcoding
scheme which throws away 10% of the bits of a 20 bit data stream will still
have more bits left than a 16 bit stream.

To that, perceptual transcoders add a "boost" factor, which cannot be
evaluated by the above simple math. But the math shows that given a
sufficiently mild compression scheme, more bits are available to reconstruct
the output.

We must remember that the amount of loss must be measured with respect to
the original undigitized material. The 16 bit sample is not pristine -- we
have severely decimated the analog source to get it.

Where some people get their backs up is the notion that moderate compression
using perceptual encoding of a high bit rate source is better than
uncompressed rendition of a lower bit rate source. But it shouldn't be,
because although digitizing is not as novel as perceptual encoding, it
certainly is a radical procedure.

[Johnny Minor]

(tor b) wrote ...
> "Arny Krueger" > wrote ...
> <snipped>
> >
> > Speaking of your perverted behavior Middius, please tell us about the kinds
> > of perverted behavior that you haven't personally engaged in.
> >
>
> Well, we know he isn't 'doing' Trotsky anymore. ;-)


But of course we know Arny is doing you, no?

Have you acquired that degree yet, mon ami? The position in St. Loius awaits.

[Shit-for-Brains]

In message >,
tor b wrote:

> "Arny Krueger" > wrote in message >...
> <snipped>
> >
> > Speaking of your perverted behavior Middius, please tell us about the kinds
> > of perverted behavior that you haven't personally engaged in.
> >
>
> Well, we know he isn't 'doing' Trotsky anymore. ;-)


If you knew something about audio Sockpuppet "Tor" it would make all the
difference to your family Sockpupeet "Torr"? LOL! Tell us about when,
your mother ran off with the postman who wasn't a Morman. MUCH!

;-)