The 1812 Overture and Tonearms

[Don Nebel]

Several years ago I had purchased a Telarc album of The 1812 Overture
and a M&K Direct to Disc album titled the Power and The Glory. The M&K
album is pipe organ music. Both albums provide challenges for some
turntables to play. At the time that I had purchased these albums I had
(and still have) a Dual 1237 turntable (cost $137.00) with a Shure M91ED
cartridge. The turntable played these albums without any apparent
trouble. One day, a long time ago, I took the 1812 overture to an Audio
Store and I told the salesman that I wanted to hear my album on his best
system. The salesman showed me a Micro Seiki turntable,a McIntosh
amplifier, and a pair of Ohm F speakers. The sales man put my album on
the turntable and preceded to tell me the virtues of this system I was
listening to,then all hell broke loose. The Telarc 1812 has cannon shots
in it and some of these are claimed to be as low as 6hz.The tone arm
went skating across the album.The Big McIntosh amplifier shut down,and I
was told never to bring That record in his store again (funny I bought
it there) and I was shown the door.On the way out the door I told the
salesman that my cheap Dual played the album just fine. Several years
have past and I had acquired a Technics SL-1400MKII and I got out the
1812 overture to check out some new subwoofers,the cartridge was a Shure
V15 typeVMR. History repeats itself and the tonearm go's skating across
the album.I increased the tracking force to 2 grams and the tonearm
could not track the cannon shots. Next I put on the M&K album, and when
the tonearm came to the low bass passages the the needle jumped out of
the groove.The Technics turntable was of the same vintage as the Dual
turntable but cost much more ($440.00). I got out my old Dual 1237 and
put the Shure V15 on it and listened to both albums without any obvious
stress to the turntable. Now for the whole point of this discussion,I am
looking for a tonearm to put on an AR turntable. The current fashion in
tonearms seems to be medium mass tonearms such as the Rega's and
SME's.Will medium mass arms and the Shure cartridge track my most
challenging records? Should I be looking for low mass tonearms? I would
hate to invest in a tonearm and it not play the records that I have. Is
the Dual tonearm better than it's price would suggest? Would a vintage
Infinity, Grace, or Formula IV tonearm be a good choice?

[Alan Peterman]

The problem is tonearm resonance and stylus compliance. With a high compliance
cartridge like the V15 and a medium or high mass arm the resonance gets pretty
low, perhaps in the range of 5-8hz - and then when you hit a tone like the canon
shot, or even some warps, the arm just jumps out of the groove. So the short
answer is that IF you are going to use a V15VMR, then a lower mass arm is a good
idea. And yes the Dual's had pretty good arms for their price and day.

On Sun, 27 Jul 2003 10:16:48 -0500 (CDT), (Don Nebel) wrote:

The Telarc 1812 has cannon shots
>in it and some of these are claimed to be as low as 6hz.>The tone arm
>went skating across the album... Several years
>have past and I had acquired a Technics SL-1400MKII and I got out the
>1812 overture to check out some new subwoofers,the cartridge was a Shure
>V15 typeVMR. History repeats itself and the tonearm go's skating across
>the album.I increased the tracking force to 2 grams and the tonearm
>could not track the cannon shots. Next I put on the M&K album, and when
>the tonearm came to the low bass passages the the needle jumped out of
>the groove... I got out my old Dual 1237 and
>put the Shure V15 on it and listened to both albums without any obvious
>stress to the turntable. Now for the whole point of this discussion,I am
>looking for a tonearm to put on an AR turntable. .. .Will medium mass arms and the Shure cartridge track my most
>challenging records? Should I be looking for low mass tonearms? I would
>hate to invest in a tonearm and it not play the records that I have. Is
>the Dual tonearm better than it's price would suggest?

[Barry Mann]

In >, on
07/27/03
at 10:16 AM, (Don Nebel) said:

>Several years ago I had purchased a Telarc album of The 1812 Overture
>and a M&K Direct to Disc album titled the Power and The Glory.
[ ... ]
>The tone arm went skating across the album.

A common saga about that LP. -- Yes, some (often cheap) turntables can
play through that section without being thrown off, but nothing could
"play" that record as cut. The report I heard was that, due to a
cutting flaw in the first release, a turntable would have to reverse
direction for an instant in order to follow the record surface exactly.

I question the wisdom of that store for throwing you out. Everyone in
the trade learned about that record, and those who knew what they were
doing could come across as true experts by explaining why that record
was essentially un-playable. (by the way, if you play the thing often
enough, that surface flaw may break off and give your turntable some
relief)

If I was faced with that certain kind of customer who came in with the
obvious intent of surprising and/or embarrassing me while trying to
play that cut (somehow thinking I was too inexperienced or dumb to know
what was about to happen), I'd pick an amplifier with an easy to blow
and replace fuse, then let him have his way (no, I'm not sexist -- but
it was always men who did that). When the fuse blew, the customer was
either embarrassed or elated, but always left quickly and ended the
pointless exchange.

I don't think it is a good idea to use the criteria of being able to
play that LP as the foundation of your arm-cartridge choices.

-----------------------------------------------------------
SPAM:
wordgame:123(abc):<14 9 20 5 2 9 18 4 at 22 15 9 3 5 14 5 20 dot 3 15
13> (Barry Mann)
[sorry about the puzzle, SPAMers are ruining my mailbox]
-----------------------------------------------------------

[Arny Krueger]

"Don Nebel" > wrote in message
...
> Several years ago I had purchased a Telarc album of The 1812 Overture
> and a M&K Direct to Disc album titled the Power and The Glory. The M&K
> album is pipe organ music. Both albums provide challenges for some
> turntables to play. At the time that I had purchased these albums I had
> (and still have) a Dual 1237 turntable (cost $137.00) with a Shure M91ED
> cartridge. The turntable played these albums without any apparent
> trouble. One day, a long time ago, I took the 1812 overture to an Audio
> Store and I told the salesman that I wanted to hear my album on his best
> system. The salesman showed me a Micro Seiki turntable,a McIntosh
> amplifier, and a pair of Ohm F speakers.

I had a pair, actually 3 Ohm F's once. In fact they aren't the greatest with
low bass. Not a lot of Xmax.

> The sales man put my album on
> the turntable and preceded to tell me the virtues of this system I was
> listening to,then all hell broke loose. The Telarc 1812 has cannon shots
> in it and some of these are claimed to be as low as 6hz.The tone arm
> went skating across the album.The Big McIntosh amplifier shut down,and I
> was told never to bring That record in his store again (funny I bought
> it there) and I was shown the door.

I'd suspect a good dollop of acoustic feedback as well as everything else.

>On the way out the door I told the
> salesman that my cheap Dual played the album just fine.

Your Dual might have been mounted more securely, with more isolation due to
architecture and furniture.

>Several years
> have past and I had acquired a Technics SL-1400MKII and I got out the
> 1812 overture to check out some new subwoofers,the cartridge was a Shure
> V15 typeVMR. History repeats itself and the tonearm go's skating across
> the album.

In contrast my house is on a concrete slab. I had Ohm F's and I had Ohm F's
with a subwoofer. No problems. Turntable was a Thorens TD125 and SME 3009II
tone arm. V15-III & IV.

> I increased the tracking force to 2 grams and the tonearm
> could not track the cannon shots. Next I put on the M&K album, and when
> the tonearm came to the low bass passages the needle jumped out of
> the groove.The Technics turntable was of the same vintage as the Dual
> turntable but cost much more ($440.00).

It's not vintage, and its not cost, its engineering. Note that besides a
concrete floor, and being in a robust cabinet in the next room, the TD-125
has some pretty heavy duty shock mounting of its own. The arm and TT are
mounted on a flexibly mounted subframe.

> I got out my old Dual 1237 and
> put the Shure V15 on it and listened to both albums without any obvious
> stress to the turntable.

It's possible that the tone arm had a higher resonance, and to some degree
acted as a low pass filter. Also, the Duals did have some kind of built-in
shock mounting.

> Now for the whole point of this discussion,I am
> looking for a tonearm to put on an AR turntable. The current fashion in
> tonearms seems to be medium mass tonearms such as the Rega's and
> SME's.Will medium mass arms and the Shure cartridge track my most
> challenging records?

IME probably, almost certainly if you avoid the other problems I've
mentioned.

>Should I be looking for low mass tonearms? I would
> hate to invest in a tonearm and it not play the records that I have. Is
> the Dual tonearm better than it's price would suggest? Would a vintage
> Infinity, Grace, or Formula IV tonearm be a good choice?

Probably, the ultimate in cheap, effective anti-feedback mounting for a
turntable is a patio stone sitting on top of a somewhat-inflated bicycle
tube. Works for holograms and lasers, works for audio.

[Clive Backham]

On Mon, 28 Jul 2003 05:05:16 -0400, (Barry Mann) wrote:

>A common saga about that LP. -- Yes, some (often cheap) turntables can
>play through that section without being thrown off, but nothing could
>"play" that record as cut. The report I heard was that, due to a
>cutting flaw in the first release, a turntable would have to reverse
>direction for an instant in order to follow the record surface exactly.

Sorry, this doesn't make sense. How does a cutting lathe produce a
retrograde cut without itself reversing direction during the cut?
As I recall that LP, it was simply a case of an enormous recorded
velocity that was pretty well impossible to track with *any*
cartridge, even the super-compliant ones like the V15.

[Barry Mann]

In >, on 07/28/03
at 10:48 AM, (Clive Backham) said:

>On Mon, 28 Jul 2003 05:05:16 -0400, (Barry Mann) wrote:

>>A common saga about that LP. -- Yes, some (often cheap) turntables can
>>play through that section without being thrown off, but nothing could
>>"play" that record as cut. The report I heard was that, due to a
>>cutting flaw in the first release, a turntable would have to reverse
>>direction for an instant in order to follow the record surface exactly.

>Sorry, this doesn't make sense. How does a cutting lathe produce a
>retrograde cut without itself reversing direction during the cut? As I
>recall that LP, it was simply a case of an enormous recorded velocity
>that was pretty well impossible to track with *any* cartridge, even
>the super-compliant ones like the V15.

I saw a photomicrograph claiming to be of the cannon shot and there was
a clear "hook" in the groove wall. I know the cutter couldn't back-up
and didn't intend to cut a hook. Perhaps the impulse of the cannon shot
excited a resonance in the cutter or there was a weakness in the wall
at that spot and damage occurred at a later processing step that
resulted in the hook. (perhaps is was an enormous horn that was not
fully removed or the metal was bent during the horn removal attempt?)

-----------------------------------------------------------
SPAM:
wordgame:123(abc):<14 9 20 5 2 9 18 4 at 22 15 9 3 5 14 5 20 dot 3 15
13> (Barry Mann)
[sorry about the puzzle, SPAMers are ruining my mailbox]
-----------------------------------------------------------

[Kalman Rubinson]

On Mon, 28 Jul 2003 10:48:26 GMT, (Clive
Backham) wrote:

>On Mon, 28 Jul 2003 05:05:16 -0400, (Barry Mann) wrote:
>
>>A common saga about that LP. -- Yes, some (often cheap) turntables can
>>play through that section without being thrown off, but nothing could
>>"play" that record as cut. The report I heard was that, due to a
>>cutting flaw in the first release, a turntable would have to reverse
>>direction for an instant in order to follow the record surface exactly.
>
>Sorry, this doesn't make sense. How does a cutting lathe produce a
>retrograde cut without itself reversing direction during the cut?
>As I recall that LP, it was simply a case of an enormous recorded
>velocity that was pretty well impossible to track with *any*
>cartridge, even the super-compliant ones like the V15.

I did track it successfully but only with the SMEIII/Ortofon SME30H.

Kal

[Geoff Wood]

>
> "Don Nebel" > wrote in message
> ...
> > Several years ago I had purchased a Telarc album of The 1812 Overture
> > and a M&K Direct to Disc album titled the Power and The Glory. The M&K
> > album is pipe organ music. Both albums provide challenges for some
> > turntables to play. At the time that I had purchased these albums I had
> > (and still have) a Dual 1237 turntable (cost $137.00) with a Shure M91ED
> > cartridge. The turntable played these albums without any apparent
> > trouble. One day, a long time ago, I took the 1812 overture to an Audio
> > Store and I told the salesman that I wanted to hear my album on his best
> > system. The salesman showed me a Micro Seiki turntable,a McIntosh
> > amplifier, and a pair of Ohm F speakers.


Oh that glorious 14-bit digital !

geoff